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00:11:08 <sagan.openprojects.net> topic is: OpenACS: Free web toolkit | http://openacs.org
00:11:08 <sagan.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy davb abbaJ zzzirk shagster_ rbm KarlL GEM chump AaronSw 
00:11:08 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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01:06:31 <davb> talli isn't back yet...
01:18:32 <davb> Static-pages info file is all fixed and comitted.
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01:53:40 <davb> Hi talli!
01:53:49 <talli> hey
01:53:56 <talli> friggin' X
01:54:10 <talli> how the hell am i supposed to configure that thing?
01:54:38 <davb> I didn;t use X on my webserver. Maybe you can edit the XF86Config-4 file.
01:54:49 <talli> i need to download and burn that
01:54:56 <talli> it comes with X3.X
01:55:00 <davb> or type xf86config
01:55:03 <davb> ick. get 4
01:56:07 <davb> what kind of laptop do you have? Sometimes there is help for specific laptop models out there. especially IBM
01:58:23 <talli> i'm using a dell latitude C600
01:58:29 <talli> it has an ATI rage mobility card
02:00:03 <talli> which binary of X should i download?
02:00:32 <talli> or just use the debian X? do they have one to download from their site? an X package?
02:02:04 <talli> brb
02:03:48 <davb> Xfree86 3.3 is in stable. If you want a newer one, you need to go for testing or unstable.
02:10:45 <davb> In case anyone is wondering Filemaker is the worst software product I have ever used. 
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03:07:34 <davb> argh! my DSL is down.
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03:38:42 <rbm> moo
03:39:35 <rbm> X 4 is much much easier to configure. 
03:48:34 <KarlL> how to add a new site-wide administrator in '4:  add a record to acs_permissions with object_id 0, grantee_id of the user and privilege of admin.  anybody know a way to do it through the oacs ui?
04:10:01 <KarlL> patch to make openacs/aolserver not get interrupted system call errors under freebsd available at http://lehenbauer.com/
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04:10:52 <rbm> If it is for OpenACS, post it at openacs.org/sdm. If for AOLserver, post it at sourceforge.net/projects/aolserver/
04:11:20 <rbm> The terminology he uses is so confusing.
04:11:23 <rbm> ooops
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07:00:16 <andyn> anyone here?
07:02:17 <andyn> if so i'm just wondering how tcl works for mathmatics?
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07:19:06 <abbaJ> andyn: depends on how complicated the mathmatics are
07:19:34 <abbaJ> tcl doesn't interpret mathematical expressions the same way most languages do
07:19:42 <abbaJ> you have to wrap them ina call to expr
07:19:44 <abbaJ> like
07:19:50 <abbaJ> expr 7 + 5
07:20:09 <abbaJ> tcl was not really designed to do complicated mathematics
07:20:24 <andyn> how well would it do something like a riemann sum?
07:20:37 <abbaJ> it's strengths are it's simplicity, size, and the way it deals with variables
07:20:47 <abbaJ> andyn: what is that?
07:21:22 <andyn> find the area under a function by taking the area of lots of rectangles
07:22:31 <abbaJ> well
07:22:47 <abbaJ> tcl can probably handle
07:23:15 <andyn> i got the script allready written in maple
07:23:25 <andyn> but maple at the computer labs at school died
07:23:32 <abbaJ> just check the tcl docs and make sure you're not going to be dealing with numbers too big for the language
07:23:58 <abbaJ> perhaps it would best be put into a C function that you could call from tcl?
07:23:59 <abbaJ> or some other language for that matter
07:24:11 <andyn> i see
07:24:20 <abbaJ> tcl's focus really is strings
07:24:34 <andyn> but slow down just a bit, i don't really know any programming
07:24:48 <andyn> just modified my professors script for an assignment
07:24:50 <abbaJ> well
07:24:55 <abbaJ> tell me what you're trying to do?
07:25:05 <abbaJ> and how does it involve ACS?
07:25:16 <andyn> got this maple script written that i need to test to make sure it works
07:25:20 <andyn> but maple died
07:26:45 <abbaJ> what does that have to do with openacs or tcl?
07:27:13 <andyn> just wondering if i could get the riemann sum to somehow work on my web site
07:27:17 <andyn> you know impress the teacher
07:28:13 <andyn> anyhow i was just wondering how hard it would be to port the script to tcl and make it work on my site
07:28:14 <abbaJ> oh
07:28:18 <abbaJ> ok
07:28:23 <abbaJ> so your website runs openacs?
07:28:27 <andyn> yep
07:28:31 <abbaJ> ok
07:28:33 <abbaJ> now I understand
07:28:40 <abbaJ> well
07:28:45 <abbaJ> I don't know maple
07:28:52 <abbaJ> but maybe you could paste what you have.
07:29:01 <abbaJ> msg it if it's big
07:29:45 <andyn> f: = x -> x^2;  # The function
07:29:45 <andyn> abbaJ: = 1;         # Set the lower limit
07:29:45 <andyn> b: = 3;         # Set the upper limit
07:29:45 <andyn> n: = 10;        # Set the number of subrectangles
07:29:46 <andyn> deltaX:= (b-a)/n;  #deltaX is the size of each subinterval
07:29:48 <andyn> shagster_: = 0;         # Initialize the loop
07:29:54 <andyn> for r from 1 to n do
07:29:56 <andyn>         x_r:= a+r*deltaX;
07:29:58 <andyn>         s := s + f(x_r)*deltaX:
07:30:00 <andyn> end do:
07:30:02 <andyn> evalf (s);
07:30:35 <abbaJ> ahh
07:30:47 <abbaJ> so this is a mathematical representation of an interval right?
07:31:09 <andyn> well sorta
07:31:28 <abbaJ> something screwed up
07:31:33 <andyn> if you take the limit of that as n approches infinity you can get the integral
07:31:43 <abbaJ> what are the var names where abbaJ: and shagster_: are?
07:31:48 <abbaJ> right...it's an approximation
07:32:01 <andyn> a and s
07:32:48 <abbaJ> ok...you can do this programmatically in tcl, but you're gonna have to do things a litle differently
07:33:10 <abbaJ> b/c tcl's not going to understand what a function is x -> x^2
07:33:14 <abbaJ> is that the same as
07:33:19 <abbaJ> f() = x^2?
07:33:51 <andyn> f(x) = x^2
07:35:19 <abbaJ> k
07:35:21 <abbaJ> just a sec
07:40:29 <abbaJ> sigh
07:40:34 <abbaJ> I'm so rusty in my math
07:41:46 <abbaJ> if I'm not wrong, a function to do that in any programming language is going to be fairly complex b/c the language is not going to understand a function with out you programming that logic in as well
07:42:35 <andyn> could be, i just don't know, like i said i don't anything about programming
07:42:48 <andyn> just barely started my cmpt studies
07:43:37 <abbaJ> do you understand what I'm saying tho?
07:44:25 <abbaJ> let me see if I can do it
07:44:33 <andyn> yeah i see
07:46:27 <andyn> hey another guy just gave me a working one in c
07:47:04 <andyn> would it help to see that?
07:47:45 <andyn> and two: would it be easier to have tcl call that so that maybe it would show up on the web site from there somehow?
07:48:56 <abbaJ> I think I've got one in tcl done
07:48:57 <abbaJ> just a sec
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08:02:31 <abbaJ> andyn: what should the answer be to that maple procedure?
08:03:34 <andyn> wich one
08:03:41 <abbaJ> the reimann sum one
08:03:44 <abbaJ> for x^2
08:03:51 <andyn> from what to what?
08:03:56 <andyn> 1 to 3 ?
08:03:56 <abbaJ> 1 to 3
08:03:58 <abbaJ> yes
08:04:01 <abbaJ> exactly what you pasted
08:04:09 <andyn> that would be right hand sums
08:04:19 <andyn> just a sec
08:04:36 <andyn> 9.48
08:04:40 <abbaJ> k
08:04:41 <andyn> i believe
08:05:14 <andyn> that what you got?
08:06:24 <andyn> yep definatley 9.48
08:09:58 <abbaJ> heh
08:09:59 <abbaJ> well
08:10:03 <abbaJ> like i said in the beginning
08:10:06 <abbaJ> tcl sucks for math
08:10:14 <abbaJ> it won't let me pass a floating point number 
08:10:23 <andyn> what is a floating point number?
08:10:42 <abbaJ> as a power
08:10:47 <abbaJ> a number with a decimal
08:10:54 <abbaJ> so in other words
08:10:57 <abbaJ> x^2 works
08:11:04 <abbaJ> but x^2.0 throws an error
08:11:11 <abbaJ> what you can do
08:11:18 <abbaJ> is compile your friends C function
08:11:21 <abbaJ> and call it from tcl
08:11:28 <abbaJ> and return the results to your web page
08:11:37 <andyn> how hard is it to do that?
08:12:43 <abbaJ> I don't think it's hard
08:12:46 <abbaJ> oh, here, I got mine to work, but it said 18
08:12:51 <abbaJ> that's wrong i guess/ :)
08:13:05 <andyn> yep
08:13:45 <abbaJ> oh well
08:13:47 <abbaJ> here's what I have
08:13:52 <abbaJ> proc reimann { l_limit h_limit rects } {
08:13:52 <abbaJ>         set deltaX  [expr ($h_limit - $l_limit)/$rects]
08:13:52 <abbaJ>         set s  0
08:13:52 <abbaJ>  
08:13:52 <abbaJ>         for { set r 1 } { $r < [expr $rects + 1] } {incr r } {
08:13:53 <abbaJ>                 set x_r [expr $l_limit + ($rects * $deltaX)]
08:13:55 <abbaJ>                 set s [expr $s + (($x_r * $x_r) * $deltaX)]
08:13:57 <abbaJ>         }
08:13:59 <abbaJ>         return $s
08:14:01 <abbaJ> }
08:14:08 <abbaJ> if you find my error you can use that
08:14:29 <abbaJ> just make sure you pass decimaled numbers to the proc or it will round
08:14:49 <abbaJ> reimann 1.00 3.00 10.00
08:14:51 <abbaJ> like that
08:15:24 <andyn> i think it may be beyond me to fix
08:15:35 <andyn> but it was a nobel effort
08:15:40 <abbaJ> hehe
08:15:44 <abbaJ> well, I was bored
08:15:52 <abbaJ> I don't see my error
08:15:54 <abbaJ> but I'm tired
08:16:06 <andyn> cool thanks for the help
08:16:10 <abbaJ> k
08:16:12 <abbaJ> np
08:16:39 <abbaJ> what does evalf do?
08:16:44 <abbaJ> just return the value of s?
08:17:43 <andyn> i think it returns the sum of all the boxes added together
08:17:55 <andyn> which is s
08:17:57 <andyn> so yeah
08:18:10 <abbaJ> ya...I don't know where I made the error
08:18:13 <abbaJ> I'm sure it's something small
08:20:47 <abbaJ> what's the eval order on these?
08:20:50 <abbaJ>  x_r:= a+r*deltaX;
08:20:50 <abbaJ> <andyn>         s := s + f(x_r)*deltaX:
08:21:01 <abbaJ> a + ( r * deltaX )
08:21:23 <abbaJ> s + ( f(x_r) * deltaX)
08:21:26 <abbaJ> right?
08:23:44 <andyn> x_r: = a+r*deltaX;
08:24:14 <andyn> s := s +f(x_r)*deltaX
08:24:37 <andyn> like that
09:07:16 <andyn> abbaJ: are you still around?
09:07:20 <andyn> or anyone?
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13:06:15 <davb> hello
13:25:47 <davb> http://www.theobvious.com/archive.html?090701
13:25:48 <chump> A: http://www.theobvious.com/archive.html?090701 from davb
13:26:01 <davb> A:|What I Want from www.theobvious.com
13:26:01 <chump> titled item A
13:26:14 <davb> A: He wants Yahoo Groups functionality for the intranet
13:26:14 <chump> commented item A
13:26:32 <davb> A: OpenACS has everything he needs except the mailing list and real-time chat features
13:26:32 <chump> commented item A
13:27:00 <davb> A: The usability might not quite be there, but we are working on it (I personally don't think Yahoo Groups is that easy to use)
13:27:00 <chump> commented item A
13:43:53 <davb> BLURB: Test post
13:43:53 <chump> B: Test post from davb
14:36:48 <davb> Comments enabled on all chump archive pages (I synced that database)
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16:41:10 <davb_> argh!
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16:41:25 <ola> hi dave.
16:41:55 <ola> using CSS, is there a way to affect the font of text in a doc that doesn't have a P tag or any other tag in front?
16:42:18 <ola> I don't want to put the content in a table which is one solution...
16:42:43 <davb> <div> or <span>
16:42:51 <davb> I am not sure which is better. 
16:43:01 <davb> <div class="yourclass"> content </div>
16:43:20 <ola> you mean wrap all pages in this?
16:43:23 <davb> If you have <a href's in the content, you need to class them seperately.
16:43:32 <ola> oh!
16:43:37 <davb> Oh you mean the WHOLE document.
16:43:43 <ola> yes
16:43:53 <davb> Do this: in an inline style or external style sheet:
16:44:19 <davb> BODY { font-face: fontanme } etc...
16:44:30 <davb> That applies the font setting to anything inside the BODY tag.
16:44:35 <ola> ahh! thanks!
16:44:55 <davb> np. I am trying to get all my page eventually to be CSS compliant.
16:45:37 <ola> It can be hard to support both NN and IE..I guess.
16:45:50 <ola> and the others.
16:46:33 <davb> Yes. IE, Mozilla, Opera and other modern browsers usually support CSS1 very well. Opera is not as forgiving as the others. 
16:46:41 <davb> If makes you follow every rule.
16:53:17 <davb> http://www.webreference.com/html/reference/character/
16:53:17 <chump> C: http://www.webreference.com/html/reference/character/ from davb
16:53:34 <davb> C:|HTML Character Reference from Webrefernce.com
16:53:34 <chump> titled item C
16:53:59 <davb> C: If you need to display a special character in HTML here is the place to find out how
16:53:59 <chump> commented item C
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17:13:42 <ola> hmm... looks like it's "font-family" and not "font-face".
17:14:00 <ola> "body {font-family:*font-name*}" works on all content *but* TABLEs, it appears...
17:14:32 <ola> "body, td {font-family:*font-name*}" works with TABLEs exclusively!
17:14:50 <davb> yes you are correct.
17:14:56 <davb> Argh!
17:14:58 <ola> very strange.
17:15:01 <davb> That is crazy.
17:15:01 <ola> :-)
17:15:42 <davb> The styles are supposed to be cascading, hence the name. So if a style is applied to the top level tag, it should cascade to every tag inside.
17:15:57 <ola> I use NN, I might add.
17:16:06 <davb> Aha. 6 or 4?
17:16:06 <ola> yes. bad name.
17:16:14 <ola> 4
17:16:43 <davb> NN4 is not friendly to CSS. Very few tags work correctly or at all. CSS can actually crash NN4.
17:17:56 <davb> http://css.nu/pointers/bugs.html
17:17:56 <chump> D: http://css.nu/pointers/bugs.html from davb
17:18:04 <davb> D:| CSS Bugs and workarounds
17:18:04 <chump> titled item D
17:18:30 <davb> http://www.webreview2.com/style/mastergrid.shtml
17:18:30 <chump> E: http://www.webreview2.com/style/mastergrid.shtml from davb
17:18:46 <davb> E:| Master compatability chart for CSS by Eric Meyer
17:18:46 <chump> titled item E
17:19:03 <ola> thanks! I definitely need a workaround:-)
17:19:15 <davb> You have to repeat the tags I guess.
17:19:32 <ola> que?
17:20:57 <davb> "Redundant selectors on <BODY> (add TD, TH, P)"
17:21:57 <ola> there is always the "one giant table" approach as a last resort...
17:22:19 <davb> Yeah, but that is icky.
17:22:31 <davb> And still could break on TDs.
17:22:56 <davb> You need to apply the same style to BODY, TD, TH, and P to make sure it doesn;t fall off.
17:24:20 <ola> redundant "selectors" on body doesn't work. 
17:24:36 <davb> Really? darn.
17:24:46 <ola> "body, td {font-family:*font-name*}" fails on tags outside TABLE...
17:24:59 <davb> Do you mind checking my site? I am always breaking NN4.
17:25:11 <ola> heh. 
17:25:30 <davb> Can you put each one seperately and try that? body {font-family } TD {font-family}...
17:25:39 <davb> www.deepskydesign.com
17:27:19 <ola> separate rows don't work:-(
17:27:36 <davb> Weird.
17:28:23 <ola> you dont seem to have changed the fonts at thedesign, do you?
17:28:50 <ola> the linkcolors are changed though.
17:30:20 <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all.  At 19:30 UTC, in two hours, we'd like to ask everyone to observe a minute of silence in sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks on September 11, their loved ones and friends.  Channel admins, if you'd like to participate, please +m your channel for a minute and optionally deop at that time.  Thanks.
17:30:59 <davb> I don't usually set fonts. I let you pick your own. I just use the default.
17:31:56 <davb> So its readable?
17:32:07 <ola> sure.
17:32:21 <ola> looks good.
17:32:22 <davb> cool. 
17:32:24 <davb> http://www.webreview.com/style/index.shtml
17:32:24 <chump> F: http://www.webreview.com/style/index.shtml from davb
17:32:35 <davb> F:| CSS Resources at Webreview.com
17:32:35 <chump> titled item F
17:33:10 <davb> F: [CSS FAQ|http://www.webreview.com/style/css-faq.shtml]
17:33:10 <chump> commented item F
17:33:27 <davb> I set styles on the BODY tag, but none of my page's text has the specified style. Why not? 
17:33:27 <davb> In most cases, this is because you have laid your page out using tables. For a variety of reasons, table implementations in current browsers will break the CSS inheritance mechanism, so setting styles on the BODY tag is not enough (even though it really should be). Modify the selector of your BODY rule to look like this: 
17:33:27 <davb> BODY, TABLE, TD, TH
17:33:27 <davb> This will apply the styles directly to TABLE and table cell elements. Note that this will only sometimes work in Navigator, which has extra-special problems with tables and styles. 
17:33:44 <davb> didn't come out right.
17:33:57 <davb> darn "only sometimes work in navigator"
17:35:31 <ola> lemme try...
17:38:21 <ola> body, table, td, th {font-family:verdana,helvetica,arial,sans-serif} refuse to work, sigh.
17:39:42 <davb> I can't believe it. it doesn't do anything at all? 
17:40:36 <davb> http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
17:40:37 <chump> G: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ from davb
17:40:43 <davb> G:|W3C CSS Validator
17:40:43 <chump> titled item G
17:40:57 <davb> G: Check your stylesheet for errors before looking for browser bugs
17:40:57 <chump> commented item G
17:41:27 <davb> I really hope I can categorize all the links I am stuffing into the chump.
17:42:39 <davb> [Global Notice] Hi all.  At 19:30 UTC, in two hours, we'd like to ask everyone to observe a minute of silence in sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks on September 11, their loved ones and friends.  Channel admins, if you'd like to participate, please +m your channel for a minute and optionally deop at that time.  Thanks.
17:43:08 <ola> well, my header and footer and nav-section are in tables and they have the desired font, but not the "content" that is table-less.
17:44:46 <davb> Weird. I wonder what is happening. No <P>s?
17:45:31 <ola> exactly. someone wrote the ACS without <P>s. Grrrr...
17:45:44 <davb> G: [HTML Validator|http://validator.w3.org/]
17:45:44 <chump> commented item G
17:45:47 <davb> Oh ok...
17:46:04 <davb> Still the body tags should take care of it. Did you close the <body>?
17:46:17 <davb> Sometimes I think ACS leaves them out.
17:48:33 <ola> yes it's closed. the BODY selector solves the problem with missing <P>s but fails in conjunction with <TD> or <TABLE>.
17:49:04 <davb> So as soon as you put in a table the other text stops working?
17:54:14 <ola> sorry, BODY selector in conjunction with TD *selector* fails. TD selector seems to override BODY selector so that only text in <TD> works. 
17:54:59 <davb> Wow. Incredible. I don't know what else to say.
17:58:33 <ola> one can always put "widgets" like nav-box and header in separate tables and let content have it's own instead of one giant table. still, content may be big and include thumbnails...
17:59:21 <ola> I guess stylesheets are good in theory! :-)
18:01:14 <davb> Yeah. I think it is mostly a nn4 problem. 
18:01:32 <davb> Do you mind if I ask why you use NN4?
18:02:41 <ola> not at all. I'm just lazy and it comes default with RH 7.1;-)
18:03:09 <davb> Aha. I was just wonderng. Mozilla 0.9.3 is pretty nice. At least as fast as NN and much more reliable.
18:04:31 <davb> But not as fast as Opera.
18:08:13 <ola> okay. I will try Mozilla 0.9.3 soon, then. Opera doesn't handle applets, does it?
18:08:48 <davb> Hmmmm... I think it has a Java version. Flash is supposed to work in the new version but not for me.
18:09:59 <davb> Supposedly it works with a Java Plugin 1.3.1
18:13:41 <ola> hey dave, I gotta go watch a documentary about that jerk, bin laden... you take care!
18:14:17 <davb> Bye
18:14:22 <davb> Thanks
18:15:10 <ola> Thank _you_!
18:15:19 <ola> ola has quit
18:39:19 <davb> anyone have the link for windows RG?
18:39:44 <zzzirk> Jussasec...
18:40:00 <davb> coool.
18:40:02 <zzzirk> http://128.241.244.96/portal/uploads/27000/27549_winrg.swf
18:40:02 <chump> H: http://128.241.244.96/portal/uploads/27000/27549_winrg.swf from zzzirk
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19:21:40 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  A reminder per previous message.  At 19:30 UTC, in two hours, we'd like to ask everyone to observe a minute of silence, in sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks on September 11, their loved ones and friends.  Channel admins, if you'd like to participate, please +m your channel for a minute and optionally deop at that time.  We're now coming up on 19:30.  Thanks.
19:23:55 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Just to clarify, 19:30 is coming up on the half-hour, in about 5 minutes.
19:28:42 <AaronSw> Please respect a minute of silence for the victims of the recent attacks. Thanks.
19:30:09 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Thank you.
19:36:37 <AaronSw> moo
19:36:47 <davb> Hi Aaron.
19:36:48 <KarlL> gobble
19:36:57 <davb> woof
19:37:10 <KarlL> I like "woof."  It has an old-timey feel.
19:37:14 <AaronSw> * AaronSw tries to figure out what the moo equivalent should be for #rdfig...
19:37:32 <AaronSw> * AaronSw goes with daml
19:37:54 <davb> Alex from Philip and Alex's Guide reference via markd2
19:38:10 <AaronSw> huh?
19:38:30 <AaronSw> Alex doesn't really say "woof"... He's above that. ;-)
19:38:41 <davb> Aha. I have never met him. sorry :)
19:38:48 <AaronSw> :-)
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