20:52:46 <loggy> loggy has joined #openacs
20:52:46 <forward.openprojects.net> topic is: OpenACS: Free web toolkit | http://openacs.org
20:52:46 <forward.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy abbaJ zzzirk markd2 shagster_ rbm KarlL GEM AaronSw chump 
20:52:46 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
20:53:19 <loggy> loggy has joined #openacs
20:53:19 <carter.openprojects.net> topic is: OpenACS: Free web toolkit | http://openacs.org
20:53:19 <carter.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy abbaJ zzzirk markd2 shagster_ rbm KarlL GEM chump AaronSw 
20:53:19 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
20:54:54 <rbm> * rbm arrives at work
20:58:25 <KarlL> trying to install static pages 4.2a, I get "no such file or directory" while trying to open /web/openacs-4/packages/static-pages/www/admin/commentability.xql
21:03:35 <rbm> is the file there?
21:04:24 <KarlL> rbm: no, there's commentability-(oracle,postgresql).xql though
21:05:09 <KarlL> trying a symlink to commentability-postgresql.xql
21:05:54 <rbm> hmmm. I don't know if there _must_ always be a .xql when -{oracle,postgresql}.xql exist
21:06:01 <rbm> try creating a blank commentability.xql
21:06:51 <KarlL> hmm, now it wants ...display-policy-toggle.xql, there's a display-policy-toggle.tcl but no other.
21:07:31 <KarlL> Is there a way to grant site-wide administrator in oacs 4?
21:15:26 <rbm> yeah
21:15:26 <rbm> somewhere in acs-admin I think
21:16:14 <KarlL> i'll check it out
21:23:06 <rbm> who is going to Lotsa Pizza Pie tonight?
21:23:11 <KarlL> rbm: can't seem to find it in acs-admin.  there are no groups defined at all.  is there a special group i should create, like with the intranet stuff in 3.2?
21:23:14 <rbm> errr. wrong window
21:23:39 <rbm> KarlL: My experience administering ACS 4 is minimal. I've mostly done porting work
21:25:01 <markd2> markd2 has quit
21:26:01 <rbm> I've developed quite a bit of development of packages for ACS 4, but not admin'ing
21:28:28 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has joined #openacs
21:28:28 <Psychephylax> Hmmm
21:33:34 <rbm> Hmmmm
21:33:51 <Psychephylax> blasted oracle/acs junk :P
22:00:52 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has quit
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22:30:30 <Psychephylax> oddness
22:30:52 <Psychephylax> I can't connect to irc.openprojects.net in windows but I can in unix
22:31:01 <Psychephylax> Is this some biased client detection thing in action?
22:31:54 <rbm> M$ doesn't you doing no stinking thing with "open" projects. It's unamerican!!!
22:32:35 <talli> talli has joined #openacs
22:32:41 <talli> hey guys
22:32:45 <rbm> hey
22:32:56 <talli> hey rbm... just the guy i was looking for...
22:33:02 <talli> have you used progeny debian at all
22:33:03 <talli> ?
22:33:13 <rbm> talli: Don't be sexist. The PC term is "hi folks" or "hi guys/gals" :)
22:33:23 <talli> sorry
22:33:25 <rbm> talli: Yeah. I've installed in a few servers
22:33:32 <talli> how about "hi geeks" or "hi nerds"?
22:33:37 <rbm> works :)
22:33:39 <talli> you like it?
22:34:15 <rbm> * rbm screams "Join us now and share the softwaaaaare, yooou wiiiillll be freeeeeee hackers, will beeeee freeeeeee"
22:34:29 <talli> i guess that's a yes?
22:34:47 <rbm> talli: yes. Have you heard "the song"?
22:34:52 <Psychephylax> hey talli 
22:35:04 <talli> no, i haven't.
22:35:06 <talli> hey psyche
22:35:06 <Psychephylax> rbm, do you know why I can't connect?
22:35:12 <talli> how you doin' out there in NY land?
22:35:19 <Psychephylax> Not great
22:35:25 <Psychephylax> Just in shock pretty much
22:35:31 <rbm> talli: go to www.stallman.org and look for the free software song sung by RMS himself
22:35:44 <rbm> Psychephylax: Yeah, read the backlog
22:36:05 <Psychephylax> Went to donate blood..that took a while
22:36:10 <Psychephylax> rbm: <rbm> M$ doesn't you doing no stinking thing with "open" projects. It's
22:36:10 <Psychephylax>           unamerican!!!
22:36:16 <Psychephylax> is that what you referring to?
22:36:21 <rbm> yes :)
22:36:29 <Psychephylax> Are you serious?
22:37:16 <talli> psyche, you in NYC or just outside?
22:37:17 <rbm> No. But it could be. Anything is possible now that M$ declared war to the unamerican open source way
22:37:17 <talli> rbm: any good recommendations for where to download progeny?
22:37:17 <rbm> progeny.com?
22:37:32 <talli> a bit slow
22:37:53 <Psychephylax> just outside
22:37:58 <talli> got one. umn.edu
22:37:59 <Psychephylax> I'm on long island
22:38:07 <talli> psyche: oh, ok
22:38:08 <Psychephylax> that sliver of land next to it
22:38:16 <talli> my apartment is 10 blocks from the WTC
22:38:21 <Psychephylax> My aunt works in NYU medical center
22:38:29 <Psychephylax> Heh, I should be asking how you're doing then
22:38:31 <talli> i was supposed to sly back to NYC yesterday at noon. i'm still in CA
22:38:35 <Psychephylax> oh
22:38:40 <Psychephylax> So I guess you got lucky eh
22:38:42 <talli> i guess someone likes me
22:38:58 <Psychephylax> heh
22:39:07 <talli> i guess. at the same time i would rather be home where i live. i'm at my parents place now. i kind of wish i was in and with my community
22:39:10 <Psychephylax> Roberto, you blaming the WTC thing on Microsoft?
22:40:09 <Psychephylax> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/nato.us/index.html
22:40:09 <chump> B: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/nato.us/index.html from Psychephylax
22:40:34 <Psychephylax> B:| NATO to support U.S. retaliation
22:40:34 <chump> titled item B
22:41:00 <Psychephylax> B: NATO has unanimously declared the hijack attacks on the U.S. to be an assault against all member states.
22:41:01 <chump> commented item B
22:41:44 <Psychephylax> The decision opens the way for NATO military and logistic support to any U.S. retaliation
22:41:48 <Psychephylax> That's my fav part
22:42:29 <Psychephylax> i wanna see what kind of a retaliation this will warrant once we find out who is responsible
22:42:37 <rbm> Psychephylax: eh??
22:42:41 <Psychephylax> I don't expect paperwork..that's all I can say
22:43:01 <Psychephylax> B:
22:43:02 <chump> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/nato.us/index.html
22:43:02 <chump> NATO to support U.S. retaliation
22:43:03 <chump> (Psychephylax) NATO has unanimously declared the hijack attacks on the U.S. to be an assault against all member states.
22:43:06 <rbm> things will get ugly with NATO in
22:43:10 <Psychephylax> nope
22:43:14 <Psychephylax> I don't think they will
22:43:26 <Psychephylax> Normally, yes, but I think this isn't the usual course of action for them
22:43:45 <Psychephylax> All the world leaders said "Whatever you guys decide, we don't really care anymore"
22:44:01 <Psychephylax> I think they'll tolerate almost anything short of a nuclear strike
22:44:42 <talli> things will get ugly with or without natp
22:44:52 <talli> i should say, "uglier"
22:44:59 <talli> cuz things don't look so good now.
22:45:20 <Psychephylax> i hear that
22:45:35 <talli> rbm: you prefer debian to RH?
22:45:45 <Psychephylax> The worst thing I've seen was one of the amature cameraguys who's a doctor be in there
22:45:46 <rbm> Very mich so
22:45:51 <rbm> s/mich/much/
22:45:53 <Psychephylax> i second that
22:45:58 <talli> how come?
22:46:04 <Psychephylax> Red Hat = bloatware
22:46:09 <Psychephylax> Much like Microsoft windows
22:46:15 <talli> well... 
22:47:07 <Psychephylax> I'm going home
22:47:08 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has quit
22:47:33 <talli> i am annoyed though that i installed the laptop version of RH7.1 and got sendmail installed and running
22:47:33 <rbm> The distribution feels a lot better. It's like it was actually designed. Things work right, the package management is superb, there are policies that the packagers to abide by and of course, the Debian Free Software Guidelines
22:47:33 <talli> by default
22:47:35 <davb> davb has joined #OpenACS
22:47:42 <talli> then when i tried to turn it off, the boot up freezes on sendmail if i don't do an interactive boot
22:47:42 <talli> that doesn't make much sense
22:47:47 <rbm> Debian just rocks. Administration is a breeze. The distribution just doesn't get in your way.
22:48:04 <davb> wb loggy!
22:48:20 <talli> i'm downloading progeny right now. i *do* like a graphical installer, and i like that ian murdock built it.
22:48:30 <rbm> I used to run Red Hat, for a long time. Then I tried Debian. Never went back, and converted all my machines to Debian.
22:48:41 <rbm> You know Scott Goodwin, author of nsopenssl?
22:48:42 <talli> cool
22:48:47 <talli> yeah
22:48:54 <talli> smarty pants?
22:48:59 <rbm> Ask him what he thinks of Debian (he used to run RH too)
22:50:11 <talli> what does he say?
22:50:13 <rbm> Graphical installers can be good. But it's non-sense to judge a distribution by its installer. That's what most "distribution reviews" do
22:50:48 <rbm> talli: Basically he said "WHAT A DIFFERENCE! I'm converting all my servers to Debian now"
22:51:12 <rbm> I have to take my wife to school. be back later
22:51:33 <talli> ok, bye
22:51:44 <talli> i agree about the installer thing, btw
22:52:03 <davb> I installed debian using the boot floppy and FTPing all the packages. It was the best install ever. Its all text. You get to pick what packages you want.
22:52:04 <talli> but i also need some graphical adminstrative tools. and i want to use the apt get stuff too
22:52:14 <talli> yeah, that is cool
22:52:35 <talli> do you use any GUI admin tools?
22:52:47 <talli> also, i must admit that i've never done the prob sets, and would like to start
22:52:53 <davb> I tried Progeny Debian. It has a pretty good administrative setup. But its hard to mix with regular debian so you have to wait for them to release the packages.
22:53:04 <talli> really? bummer
22:53:06 <davb> I never did the problem sets.
22:53:16 <talli> you just bang through?
22:53:17 <davb> Its OK if you run stable.
22:53:29 <davb> I just use apt-get and dselect.
22:53:40 <talli> hmmm... where did you get debian?
22:53:43 <davb> I use the graphical config for Gnome.
22:53:52 <talli> you like it/
22:53:53 <talli> ?
22:54:40 <davb> I downloaded the Progeny ISO image for my desktop. But since I have dist-upgraded it to debian unstable. Luckily it still works.
22:55:11 <davb> My web server I installed from a floppy and FTPed all the packages. If you have a fast connection its nice. 
22:55:12 <talli> the download of progeny is taking too long
22:55:23 <talli> i have a DSL connection, but it seems to be slow now
22:55:33 <talli> what do you think about installing debian and upgrading to progeny?
22:55:37 <davb> If you want to install a network of machines, get the debian distribution for that and install from a local FTP server.
22:56:05 <davb> I don't know if Progeny has perfected it. When I installed it you had to do it on a clean system with no Linux. I had a clean hard drive.
22:56:21 <talli> hmm... no, i just want to run it on my laptop
22:56:32 <talli> btw, check this out:
22:56:42 <davb> KarlL, sounds like I screwed up the static-pages.info file again...
22:56:45 <talli> http://www.pobox.com/~johnseq/oasis/about.html
22:56:46 <chump> C: http://www.pobox.com/~johnseq/oasis/about.html from talli
22:57:03 <talli> John Sequiera's OpenACS VM project called Oasis
22:57:20 <talli> C: John Sequiera's OpenACS VM project called Oasis
22:57:20 <chump> commented item C
22:57:33 <talli> C: I hope John doesn't kill me for announcing this before he does
22:57:34 <chump> commented item C
22:57:50 <talli> anyway, that's probably the easiest way to set openacs up :)
22:58:03 <talli> but i'm going to be an asshole and do it the hard way anyway
22:58:26 <davb> C: Looks like a great idea! Its exactly what the community needs.
22:58:26 <chump> commented item C
22:59:24 <davb> If you have a fast net connection I recommend just going to www.debian.org and slogging through the graphical installer. It won't kill you if you know how to partition a hard drive, etc...
23:01:41 <talli> should i use the 2.2r3 version?
23:01:51 <talli> is it important to have the latest kernel?
23:02:23 <davb> Sounds right. 
23:02:50 <davb> I am not a kernel guru. I would say it is best to install recent kernel.
23:04:34 <talli> which?
23:04:35 <talli> 2.2r3?
23:04:35 <talli> or the latest kernel?
23:04:35 <talli> i don't think they are the same
23:04:37 <talli> can you upgrade the kernel easily in debian with aptget?
23:04:45 <talli> ok
23:04:48 <talli> thanks
23:05:14 <davb> THere is a special debian kernel install procedure. But rbm said he just compiles it and I tried that it worked good for me.
23:05:20 <talli> ok, cool
23:05:21 <talli> thanks
23:05:26 <davb> np. 
23:05:37 <davb> Is this laptop critical to your business?
23:06:46 <talli> yeah, but i have my drive partitioned
23:06:57 <talli> i already have a linux partition that i was trying to run redhat on
23:07:25 <davb> Aha. 
23:07:39 <talli> do you think it's reasonable to try and learn openacs via openacs4?
23:07:52 <talli> or is it better to learn 3.2 and then move up?
23:07:55 <davb> Cool. I really like debian. Someone else mentioned I think SUSE which has its own package system.
23:08:17 <talli> yeah, i was told suse was cool. i once tried to install it and it froze, so i never tried again :)
23:08:21 <davb> No. Just go to 4. 3 is almost totally unrelated to 4. That way you don't have to unlearn 3.
23:08:31 <talli> good point
23:08:54 <talli> i guess i will just learn pgPL/SQL instead of PL/SQL
23:09:06 <talli> i would like to use the prob sets, but i will just bug you guys, luke and pat about it
23:09:11 <davb> Learn both. Its not too big a difference. 
23:09:17 <talli> ok
23:09:21 <davb> vinod is the pset man!
23:09:25 <talli> oh yeah?
23:09:27 <talli> good to know...
23:10:35 <davb> Well at least he did a couple of them. 
23:10:50 <davb> I get bored with the psets. I like building web sites.
23:13:45 <talli> understood. i have some sites i would like to build, so maybe i'll just jump in there. then again, that could suck. oh well.
23:14:05 <talli> how jonathon marsden's RPMs? they working for 4?
23:14:07 <davb> Hey, with ETP you can get going real fast! Its great.
23:14:21 <talli> wait-- i'm installing debian
23:14:31 <talli> do rpms work with debian? is it tricky?
23:14:48 <davb> no. It might be technically possible, but not worth it.
23:15:20 <talli> ok
23:15:23 <davb> There is a debian package maintainer> I think 3.2.5 is available. Also I think AOLServer, but you really need 3.3+ad13 
23:16:39 <rbm> talli: I've installed progeny then switched to Debian. It's not hard, but it's not trivial either.
23:18:03 <rbm> You can extract rpms to .tgz and install them.
23:18:33 <davb> yeah! The informative return of rbm
23:19:10 <rbm> :)
23:19:15 <davb> Talli: I have the progeny CD. I could always mail you a copy if the download is not sucessful.
23:21:17 <AaronSw> Hi talli
23:22:46 <davb> talli: it looks like you can upgrade from debian 2.2 to progeny if you want.
23:23:05 <talli> hey aaron
23:23:19 <AaronSw> How's SF?
23:23:23 <AaronSw> Calli's back up.
23:23:24 <talli> no, i can get progeny later
23:23:31 <talli> yeah, the power is prob back on.
23:23:36 <talli> SF is good, but a bit frustrating
23:23:40 <talli> would like to get home
23:23:47 <talli> rbm and dave: thanks
23:23:53 <talli> i'll just go with debian.
23:24:04 <AaronSw> Frustrating cuz of what happened at home?
23:24:11 <talli> yup
23:24:12 <davb> np
23:24:31 <AaronSw> It's so funny how there's hardly any email...
23:24:31 <talli> my parents and bro are here, and i grew up here, but my life is there. so it's a bit of a bitch. 
23:24:50 <AaronSw> yeah
23:25:05 <davb> rbm: is there a way to update the .info file to remove files that are no longer there? besides emacs?
23:25:54 <talli> well, maybe people actually consider being mellow in the face of terrorism somewhat more important than access to docs about internet standards. that is rather counter to experience IMO, but maybe it's true
23:25:55 <rbm> Yeah. On the package manager admin pages you can regenerate a .info
23:26:15 <talli> ok,guys... 
23:26:17 <davb> OK. I'll try it. I thought I did it before, but there was a rouge xql file in there.
23:26:20 <talli> gonna go install linux.
23:26:26 <talli> see you on the other side...
23:26:29 <talli> talli has quit
23:35:10 <rbm> * rbm heads out