IRC log of openacs on 2001-08-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:03:11 [loggy]
loggy has joined #openacs
00:03:11 [benford.openprojects.net]
topic is: Welcome to #openACS, the openACS book club.
00:03:11 [benford.openprojects.net]
Users on #openacs: loggy gilbertw rbm shagster andyn talli AaronSw davb abbaJ chump zzzirk GEM
00:03:11 [ChanServ]
This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
00:03:25 [AaronSw]
woohoo
00:03:29 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw waves to loggy
00:06:06 [loggy]
loggy has joined #openacs
00:06:06 [carter.openprojects.net]
topic is: Welcome to #openACS, the openACS book club.
00:06:06 [carter.openprojects.net]
Users on #openacs: loggy gilbertw rbm shagster andyn talli AaronSw davb abbaJ chump GEM zzzirk
00:06:06 [ChanServ]
This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
00:06:15 [AaronSw]
Turns out that my LocalAddr was being set wrong, since I'm behind a firewall.
00:06:55 [loggy]
loggy has joined #openacs
00:06:55 [niven.openprojects.net]
topic is: Welcome to #openACS, the openACS book club.
00:06:55 [niven.openprojects.net]
Users on #openacs: loggy gilbertw rbm shagster andyn talli AaronSw davb abbaJ chump zzzirk GEM
00:06:56 [ChanServ]
This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
00:07:01 [AaronSw]
...just debugging daemontools...
00:07:06 [AaronSw]
ok, he's back for good
00:07:20 [davb]
cool. is that something you need to set to use logger?
00:07:38 [AaronSw]
umm, well logger sets it automatically, most of the time
00:07:44 [AaronSw]
http://blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/
00:07:44 [chump]
G: http://blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ from AaronSw
00:07:48 [AaronSw]
G:|Loggy is back!
00:07:49 [chump]
titled item G
00:07:57 [davb]
Aha.
00:08:12 [andyn]
andyn has quit
00:16:01 [andyn]
andyn has joined #openacs
00:16:21 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax has joined #openacs
00:16:31 [Psychephylax]
hey guys
00:17:06 [davb]
hi
00:17:30 [Psychephylax]
I got a new desk
00:17:33 [Psychephylax]
and a new computer
00:17:34 [Psychephylax]
:)
00:17:38 [Psychephylax]
and a phone!
00:18:00 [GEM]
Woohoo!
00:18:39 [Psychephylax]
exactly!
00:19:16 [Psychephylax]
now I can call my boss insead of having to walk across the damn building
00:19:33 [Psychephylax]
not that I ever have anything useful to ask him..but it was good for excersize
00:20:19 [Psychephylax]
chump view
00:20:27 [Psychephylax]
chump: view
00:20:27 [chump]
C: Java How to Program by Dietel and Dietel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130125075/ref=pd_sbs_b_3/103-7611708-8262252)
00:20:28 [chump]
D: http://sicp.arsdigita.org/text/sicp/
00:20:29 [chump]
E: Robots.txt (http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/norobots.html)
00:20:30 [chump]
F: http://etp.museatech.net
00:20:31 [chump]
G: Loggy is back! (http://blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/)
00:20:52 [GEM]
Oh, cool
00:21:18 [Psychephylax]
what?
00:21:37 [Psychephylax]
chump: a
00:21:37 [chump]
Not understood: a
00:21:40 [GEM]
I didn't know that you could get chump to do that
00:21:44 [Psychephylax]
oh hehe
00:21:49 [Psychephylax]
he's smart
00:22:00 [Psychephylax]
but not as smart as Monkeybot
00:22:21 [GEM]
hmm. is chump a standadr bot? I've looked a bit at infobots
00:22:30 [Psychephylax]
i dunno
00:22:36 [Psychephylax]
you should ask rbm
00:23:43 [GEM]
There's an infobot on a channel where I hang out, which we have taught some fun things about guitar and chords
00:23:57 [Psychephylax]
hehe
00:24:07 [Psychephylax]
my friend Jim improved on infobot
00:24:18 [Psychephylax]
he added some perl stuff that offers channel protection
00:24:31 [markd2]
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00:24:34 [Psychephylax]
Mark!
00:25:01 [GEM]
nice! Of course, I have friends who wrote Kerberos and things like that :-)
00:25:13 [davb]
chump is written in Python. It runs on #rdfig
00:25:33 [Psychephylax]
:p
00:25:56 [GEM]
sorry - not trying to do one-upsmanship
00:26:07 [Psychephylax]
anyone use FreeBSD here?
00:26:26 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax looks at gilbert
00:26:29 [davb]
Check out http://www.webreview.com/2001/08_24/developers/index02.shtml
00:26:32 [davb]
article about chump
00:26:45 [gilbertw]
yes. FreeBSD here
00:26:54 [Psychephylax]
ok
00:27:08 [gilbertw]
* gilbertw uses linux too
00:27:12 [Psychephylax]
how much damage can I do by installing the new system binaries in multiuser mode?
00:27:23 [davb]
* davb should link to the chump doc from the weblog page.
00:27:46 [GEM]
got a friend who discovered a fascinating "feature" in perl years ago. One that lwall said made his jaw hit the keyboard
00:27:52 [Psychephylax]
i'm trying to update my computer at work remotely
00:28:02 [gilbertw]
psychephylax: are you doing a make world?
00:28:06 [Psychephylax]
close
00:28:11 [Psychephylax]
make buildworld
00:28:22 [markd2]
GEM: what feature?
00:28:22 [chump]
Label GEM not found.
00:29:27 [davb]
memo : don't use : when speaking to GEM
00:29:53 [GEM]
markd2: the fact that s/foo/bar/ee will substitute foo for bar, then evaluate the result *twice*
00:30:05 [gilbertw]
psychephylax: not sure.
00:30:11 [Psychephylax]
ok
00:30:24 [markd2]
cool
00:30:59 [gilbertw]
the freebsd handbook suggests that you go into single user mode
00:31:33 [Psychephylax]
i know
00:31:39 [GEM]
markd: have you seen Randal S's "eieio JAPH"?
00:31:45 [gilbertw]
psychephylax: you can build in multi-user and go to single user to install
00:32:05 [markd2]
nope. what is that?
00:32:13 [markd2]
I know the PowerPC has an EIEIO instruction
00:32:20 [markd2]
but outside of that , I don't knwo the reference
00:33:14 [Psychephylax]
yeah
00:33:24 [Psychephylax]
but I won't be at work until Friday
00:33:34 [GEM]
$Old_MacDonald = q#print #; $had_a_farm = (q-q:Just another Perl hacker,:-);
00:33:34 [GEM]
s/^/q[Sing it, boys and girls...],$Old_MacDonald.$had_a_farm/eieio;
00:34:04 [GEM]
see those two lines of perl? work out how they do whatever they do
00:34:52 [markd2]
there's a reason why I avoid perl...
00:34:55 [davb]
* davb is going to the dark side
00:34:57 [davb]
davb has quit
00:35:05 [Psychephylax]
lol
00:35:13 [Psychephylax]
Mark, I got a new desk at work
00:35:17 [Psychephylax]
and a new computer
00:35:23 [Psychephylax]
no more crashing the AOL server
00:35:49 [GEM]
OK. anyway, it prints "just another perl hacker"
00:36:31 [Psychephylax]
I went from 32 megs of ram to 384
00:37:48 [GEM]
a little change there, Psyche...
00:38:07 [Psychephylax]
yeah
00:38:13 [Psychephylax]
and it's SCSI
00:38:49 [GEM]
I am amazed about how cheap RAM is anymore
00:39:40 [tdxdave]
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00:42:52 [Psychephylax]
hey dave
00:43:21 [Psychephylax]
anyone know how to find out how many processors a FreeBSD box have without SMP compiled yet?
00:44:32 [gilbertw]
* gilbertw grabs a screwdriver and a flashlight
00:45:35 [Psychephylax]
heh
00:45:41 [Psychephylax]
That's the plan for Friday
00:48:22 [tdxdave]
tdxdave is now known as davb
00:48:48 [Psychephylax]
aha
00:48:51 [Psychephylax]
whats' with the name change?
00:48:58 [davb]
easier to type.
00:49:02 [Psychephylax]
heh
00:49:09 [Psychephylax]
You try typing Psychephylax
00:49:10 [Psychephylax]
lol
00:53:03 [strainmaker]
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00:57:41 [jmarsden]
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01:06:07 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax wonders if he can crontab a make installworld and a reboot into cron
01:06:20 [Psychephylax]
anyone know if cron jobs are run in single user mode?
01:07:43 [markd2]
I have no idea
01:08:48 [Psychephylax]
ahhhh screw it
01:09:05 [Psychephylax]
i'll install it in multi
01:09:13 [Psychephylax]
if I mess it up...it gives me a reason to install Windows :D
01:09:32 [jmarsden]
Not usually... the test is whether crond the daemon is running :-)
01:09:54 [Psychephylax]
heh
01:09:55 [jmarsden]
On Red Hat at least, crond runs in runlevels 2 to 5
01:09:56 [Psychephylax]
well, you see...
01:10:11 [Psychephylax]
I'm about 25 miles away from this computer
01:10:48 [jmarsden]
I've done kernel upgrades and reboots from 8000 miles :-) :-)
01:11:39 [davb]
That require confidence and luck.
01:11:51 [jmarsden]
Yes. Definitely.
01:12:35 [gilbertw]
gilbertw has quit
01:14:27 [Psychephylax]
well
01:14:52 [jmarsden]
Did it work, PshcyeP? or do you have a 25 mile drive to make?
01:16:24 [Psychephylax]
it's still building
01:16:43 [Psychephylax]
what's the thing for blurbs again?
01:16:50 [Psychephylax]
is there a colon or not?
01:18:12 [jmarsden]
* jmarsden tries 'man -k blurb' but nothing matches...
01:18:18 [Psychephylax]
lol
01:19:04 [markd2]
yeah, I think it's a colon
01:19:08 [markd2]
that follows the letter that indicates the URL
01:19:29 [Psychephylax]
BLURB: Psychephylax gets upset when people don't call him Psychephylax or Psyche or Nick
01:19:32 [chump]
H: Psychephylax gets upset when people don't call him Psychephylax or Psyche or Nick from Psychephylax
01:19:48 [Psychephylax]
hehehe
01:20:02 [Psychephylax]
The computer is so damn loud ;) i can almost hear it here
01:20:31 [jmarsden]
If you do /msg chump help it should tell you all the syntax stuff
01:27:24 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax patiently waits for the compile to finish
01:32:10 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax is also very impatient
01:33:17 [Psychephylax]
it's done!!! :)
01:34:34 [Psychephylax]
me configures the kernel
01:34:51 [GEM]
Oh? I issed what "it" is, sorry
01:35:14 [Psychephylax]
?
01:35:18 [Psychephylax]
oh
01:35:24 [Psychephylax]
it = my system compile
01:36:01 [GEM]
cool
01:37:53 [markd2]
* markd2 is finally done working for the day!
01:37:55 [markd2]
woo hoo!
01:37:59 [Psychephylax]
hehe
01:37:59 [markd2]
I can sleep tonight! yay!
01:38:01 [Psychephylax]
congrats
01:38:09 [markd2]
seizure folks tomorrow
01:38:10 [markd2]
markd2 has quit
01:38:45 [Psychephylax]
bye
01:38:47 [Psychephylax]
;(
01:39:03 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax in an announcer voice "THE ORACLE HAS LEFT THE BUILDING'
01:39:26 [GEM]
congrats, Mark! it is still not clear whether I can or not
01:40:13 [Psychephylax]
Kernel config ... going...going....
01:54:08 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax does "make installworld"
01:54:09 [abbaJ]
abbaJ has quit
01:59:15 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax reboots
01:59:24 [Psychephylax]
wish me luck
02:02:06 [Psychephylax]
it booted
02:02:43 [Psychephylax]
w00t
02:02:43 [Psychephylax]
FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard
02:02:44 [Psychephylax]
cpu0 (BSP): apic id: 0, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000
02:02:44 [Psychephylax]
cpu1 (AP): apic id: 1, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000
02:02:44 [Psychephylax]
io0 (APIC): apic id: 2, version: 0x00170011, at 0xfec00000
02:02:49 [Psychephylax]
SMP!!!
02:03:29 [jmarsden]
jmarsden has quit
02:05:29 [davb]
yippe!
02:06:31 [Psychephylax]
yep
02:06:34 [Psychephylax]
now...muahaha
02:06:39 [Psychephylax]
to put these processors to good use
02:06:44 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax hops over to distributed.net
02:08:19 [davb]
* davb has a new RPG -- Arcanum
02:16:21 [andyn]
andyn has quit
02:20:10 [andyn]
andyn has joined #openacs
02:20:59 [Psychephylax]
Anyone know what SMP is supposed to look like?
02:21:05 [Psychephylax]
I suspect it might be only 1 CPU :(
02:21:41 [docwolf]
docwolf has joined #openacs
02:23:45 [Psychephylax]
ouch
02:23:48 [Psychephylax]
my box must have died
02:23:50 [Psychephylax]
:(
02:42:05 [davb]
hi docwolf
02:42:11 [docwolf]
howdy
02:42:15 [docwolf]
how goes it this evening?
02:44:32 [talli]
yo doc!
02:44:39 [docwolf]
yo talli
02:44:40 [talli]
how does it go?
02:44:44 [docwolf]
it's going a-ok
02:44:49 [talli]
good to hear
02:44:51 [docwolf]
just got back from a Cubs game, and i'm pumped
02:45:15 [talli]
because florida can't throw a pitch that the catcher can stay in front of?
02:45:29 [docwolf]
heh... poor marlins
02:45:34 [talli]
(giants will get the wild card, not the cubs, btw)
02:45:45 [docwolf]
they suck, but then again, i could probably fund their payroll personally ;-)
02:45:50 [talli]
haha
02:46:33 [talli]
so i guess the VC biz is treating you well?
02:46:43 [docwolf]
heh.. i've taken some time off
02:47:00 [docwolf]
been hanging around chicago for a couple of weeks
02:47:02 [talli]
can you do that on internet time?
02:47:14 [docwolf]
i'm no longer on internet time
02:47:16 [docwolf]
(thank god)
02:47:26 [docwolf]
i was prematurely aging.
02:47:33 [docwolf]
a couple of more years, and i'd look like the cryptkeeper.
02:47:47 [talli]
i know him.
02:47:53 [talli]
he did my makeover
02:48:11 [docwolf]
nice
02:49:21 [talli]
doc, i have a question for you...
02:49:51 [talli]
we're partnering with a NPO to build a new module, but more an application, for OACS
02:50:12 [docwolf]
cool
02:50:54 [talli]
they have submitted a contract to us that has a clause that binds us to providing a finders fee for any project that they refer to us, and a percentage of revenue of an ASP that we will share maintainence and admin of
02:51:08 [talli]
however, they also want a piece of revenue for every non-referred client
02:51:45 [docwolf]
so in a sense you are "partners" in a new business
02:51:51 [talli]
we are partnering with them because they have a piece of software they've been developing for 8 years which is very good. they have the docs and the workflows and everything that is needed to build a good app
02:51:52 [talli]
yes.
02:52:06 [talli]
but we do not want to agree to that clause.
02:52:35 [talli]
the reason is that as an open source product, we are effectively the only entity that is bound by a license
02:53:11 [talli]
we are at a competitive disadvantage simply because we must account for x% that our competitors are not bound to
02:53:26 [talli]
a penalty for actually building the software in the first place.
02:53:31 [talli]
my question is...
02:53:34 [docwolf]
got it.
02:53:56 [talli]
is this clause (btw, am i spelling that word right? klooz?) in conflict with the GPL?
02:54:24 [docwolf]
which clause?
02:54:28 [docwolf]
the revenue sharing one?
02:54:56 [talli]
the clause guaranteeing them a piece of revenue for non-referred clients.
02:55:15 [docwolf]
i don't think it is...
02:55:16 [talli]
the question is, what if we extend the app without their help?
02:55:28 [docwolf]
ahh... i see...
02:55:34 [talli]
2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion
02:55:35 [talli]
of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and
02:55:35 [talli]
distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1
02:55:35 [talli]
above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:
02:55:35 [talli]
02:55:35 [talli]
b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
02:55:37 [talli]
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
02:55:39 [talli]
part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
02:55:41 [talli]
parties under the terms of this License.
02:55:43 [talli]
that's from the GPL license itself
02:55:48 [Psychephylax]
who what when why where
02:55:49 [Psychephylax]
wtf
02:55:53 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax wakes up
02:56:00 [docwolf]
ok, here's the thing
02:56:04 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax tags talli with a sign "Moo"
02:56:07 [docwolf]
distinguish between
02:56:22 [docwolf]
the piece of software that you are writing, and the ASP that you are running
02:56:31 [docwolf]
they are two totally differnet issues
02:56:42 [docwolf]
the software will be GPL'd (yes?)
02:56:46 [talli]
it has to be.
02:56:52 [talli]
it's a part of the OpenACS
02:56:58 [docwolf]
and the _service_ actually sounds to me like a joint venture between you and this other firm
02:57:04 [docwolf]
what happens with the software in the future
02:57:11 [docwolf]
outside of this ASP that you are running
02:57:17 [talli]
i agree about the ASP and the referred clients clauses
02:57:19 [docwolf]
is nobody's business
02:57:20 [talli]
those are legit
02:58:02 [docwolf]
if they want a cut of future transactions
02:58:07 [talli]
so the question is whether they can, in terms of the GPL license, legitemately ask for a piece of ALL revenue
02:58:14 [docwolf]
even when they aren't doing anything useful
02:58:21 [docwolf]
you really need to carefully define your relationship
02:58:26 [docwolf]
and the boundries...
02:58:39 [docwolf]
lets say you wanted to take the software and start a "new" ASP, without their involvement
02:58:41 [docwolf]
then what...
03:00:07 [talli]
right
03:00:09 [docwolf]
i suppose the notion of who holds the copyright is fairly irrelevent here too
03:00:14 [talli]
right
03:00:16 [docwolf]
because everything _must_ be GPLd
03:00:31 [docwolf]
traditionally when big-ass companies
03:00:35 [docwolf]
get into relationships like this
03:00:42 [docwolf]
they form formal joint ventures...
03:00:48 [talli]
who does hold the copyright in this instance? aD as the holders of the ACS GPL copyright?
03:00:54 [docwolf]
like Dow and Corning when they teamed up to make silicon breast implants
03:01:11 [docwolf]
aD holds the copyright on the pieces that they contributed
03:01:14 [talli]
...received my undying gratitude
03:01:22 [talli]
(kidding)
03:01:23 [docwolf]
ben, don, etc... hold other pieces
03:01:26 [talli]
ok.
03:01:27 [docwolf]
:-)
03:01:36 [docwolf]
it's a mess, but thanks to the GPL
03:01:44 [talli]
so it would be either them, us or a joint holding
03:01:57 [docwolf]
yeah
03:02:14 [docwolf]
again, since it's GPLd i don't see much of a problem
03:02:20 [docwolf]
because anyone can use it for any purpose anyway.
03:02:29 [talli]
agreed. that's kind of the problem, though...
03:02:33 [talli]
anyone BUT us.
03:02:38 [talli]
we have to pay.
03:02:39 [docwolf]
right --
03:02:41 [docwolf]
you need to figure out
03:02:45 [docwolf]
when you _need_ to pay
03:02:48 [docwolf]
and when you don't
03:02:48 [talli]
and since it's a partnership, we're sinking a lot of money into the development.
03:02:58 [talli]
so we have to pay coming and going
03:03:22 [docwolf]
yes.. but presumably, your partner is bringing some significant value to the table going forward?
03:03:24 [docwolf]
(i hope...)
03:03:32 [talli]
yeah, they are.
03:03:35 [talli]
but that's a sunk cost.
03:03:38 [talli]
and they are an NPO
03:03:43 [talli]
(nonprofit)
03:03:52 [docwolf]
let's say hypothetically
03:03:55 [talli]
so they are not really risking anything.
03:03:57 [docwolf]
that you set up _another_ ASP
03:04:02 [docwolf]
using the identical software
03:04:06 [docwolf]
what would happen?
03:04:15 [talli]
hold on, lemme check the contract
03:04:41 [docwolf]
(btw, i'm not a lawyer.. just a lamer.)
03:04:47 [talli]
understood.
03:04:54 [talli]
but you do have a medical degree.
03:05:04 [docwolf]
heh.. that's useful :-)
03:05:06 [talli]
that means that you must have gone through at least one malpractice suit
03:05:14 [docwolf]
rotfl
03:05:15 [talli]
so i figure you know alot of law
03:05:20 [docwolf]
kill all the lawyers
03:06:07 [talli]
are you getting that glazed look again?
03:06:32 [docwolf]
urge to kill... increasing...
03:06:43 [talli]
is that a homer quote?
03:06:47 [docwolf]
yeah :-)
03:07:09 [talli]
nice
03:07:17 [Psychephylax]
no no no
03:07:22 [talli]
so they ask for a piece of the ASP for a year, referred or otherwise
03:07:25 [Psychephylax]
not "increasing"!
03:07:38 [Psychephylax]
It's "urge to kill...riiiising....riiiisiing....riiiiiiiiising"
03:07:42 [docwolf]
:-)
03:07:42 [Psychephylax]
Look dad! TV!!
03:07:50 [talli]
and a piece of the revenue on customized systems for 3 years
03:07:52 [Psychephylax]
"urge to kill faaaaading...faaaading...gooone"
03:08:04 [docwolf]
oof
03:08:08 [docwolf]
i can see the ASP piece
03:08:10 [talli]
yeah.
03:08:12 [docwolf]
but the other one
03:08:12 [talli]
i agree
03:08:21 [docwolf]
... that second clause seems a litle dicey to me
03:08:26 [talli]
i know
03:08:44 [docwolf]
you are, of course, correct
03:08:53 [docwolf]
that second clause puts you at a competitive disadvantage
03:09:12 [docwolf]
unless .... your partner brings something to the table to help with the customizations
03:09:25 [talli]
i doubt it. not enough for that amount of money
03:09:39 [talli]
the thing is, this product has implications for many other systems
03:11:14 [docwolf]
ugh
03:11:20 [docwolf]
so any time you even think about using it as a base
03:11:23 [docwolf]
you need to pay up?
03:11:28 [talli]
i don't know. unclear
03:11:49 [docwolf]
i'd nail that one down ASAP
03:12:27 [talli]
tell me about it
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11:45:04 [GEM]
morning
11:45:22 [davb]
hi
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15:31:14 [strainmaker]
morning folks
15:31:30 [strainmaker]
installing the latest version of OpenACS 4
15:31:46 [strainmaker]
I get an error from the root index page
15:31:58 [strainmaker]
The configured OpenNSD Stacksize is too small (). OpenACS requires a StackSize parameter of at least 131072 (ie 128K). Please
15:31:59 [strainmaker]
add the following to your OpenNSD configuration file or see the Installation Guide for more information.
15:31:59 [strainmaker]
[ns/threads]
15:31:59 [strainmaker]
stacksize=131072
15:31:59 [strainmaker]
If you use a .tcl configuration file, add
15:32:01 [strainmaker]
ns_section "ns/threads"
15:32:03 [strainmaker]
ns_param StackSize 131072
15:32:29 [strainmaker]
however, my stack size is at 500000
15:33:54 [markd2]
that error is probably coming from something that's just looking at the config file
15:34:00 [markd2]
so make sure that everything is kosher there
15:34:10 [markd2]
e.g. ns/threads has the stacksize parameter set
15:34:53 [strainmaker]
k
15:35:28 [strainmaker]
ah, I was looking at ns/parameters
15:35:29 [strainmaker]
my bad
15:37:01 [strainmaker]
that fixed it, thanks
15:38:56 [markd2]
woo hoo!
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15:49:19 [markd2]
markd2 is now known as rpm
15:49:25 [rpm]
rpm is now known as markd2
16:05:25 [GEM]
go markd!
16:08:38 [markd2]
heh
16:08:49 [markd2]
just responding to a "* rob kicks rpm" over in another channel
16:27:42 [talli]
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16:27:56 [talli]
morning fellow cosmonauts
16:28:42 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw wonders why markd2 insists on being markd2 when there is no markd or markd1 around
16:29:19 [markd2]
"markd" is a registered nick
16:29:29 [GEM]
* GEM saw a markd yesterday
16:29:31 [markd2]
who isn't around much, but it;'s still reserved :-(
16:29:37 [markd2]
shoot, I had 'markd@aol.com' for 3 years
16:30:04 [GEM]
markd: Oh? I just asked nickserv
16:30:14 [GEM]
and it said that markd is not registered
16:30:50 [GEM]
* GEM was the first regular "GEM" on irc...had been going to be "Greg", but there was already a well-known one
16:30:54 [markd2]
markd2 is now known as markd
16:31:17 [talli]
who's the new guy? i don't know no friggin' markd?
16:31:23 [talli]
it's an impostor!
16:31:33 [markd]
ahhh. I feel much better now
16:31:37 [markd]
all this time I thought it was registered
16:32:03 [AaronSw]
registrations expire after 30 days
16:32:06 [AaronSw]
so quick, claim it now!
16:32:11 [AaronSw]
30 days of inactivity, that is
16:32:43 [markd]
* markd claims it. woo hoo!
16:32:57 [markd]
gotta reboot. brb
16:33:00 [talli]
how do you do it? register a username?
16:33:02 [markd]
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16:34:41 [talli]
hello?
16:36:53 [markd2]
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16:37:01 [markd2]
markd2 is now known as markd
16:37:37 [AaronSw]
talli, do a /msg nickserv register password
16:40:40 [talli]
at the prompt?
16:41:00 [zzzirk]
I just now tried it from right here in my IRC client and it worked.
16:41:13 [talli]
do you guys see that?
16:41:17 [talli]
that wouldn't be good
16:41:20 [zzzirk]
No
16:41:25 [talli]
that's good :)
16:41:34 [zzzirk]
By send /msg it's a direct message to the recipient "nickserv"
16:41:41 [talli]
cool. thanks
16:41:51 [zzzirk]
s/send/sending
16:43:25 [talli]
hey aaron, i tried to find the edit this page app at blogspace and couldn't find any entry point
16:43:29 [talli]
how can i check it out?
16:43:40 [AaronSw]
by asking me, of course
16:44:00 [AaronSw]
:-)
16:44:03 [talli]
who are you again?
16:44:33 [AaronSw]
I'm the guy who smacked you yesterday.
16:44:37 [AaronSw]
Register at: http://admin.logicerror.com/register/
16:45:08 [talli]
aaron, calliope can go down *very* easily you know... :)
16:45:38 [AaronSw]
I'm your bestest friend, talli!
16:46:34 [talli]
so, now that i've registered, i still can't find a link to the editing page..
16:46:47 [AaronSw]
yes, it's not public yet...
16:47:02 [talli]
ah, ok
16:47:05 [AaronSw]
I do it manually to show people
16:47:12 [talli]
ok
16:48:22 [AaronSw]
OK, visit http://admin.logicerror.com/talli/
16:48:26 [talli]
thanks
16:48:31 [AaronSw]
np
16:48:55 [talli]
not found...
16:49:03 [talli]
probably still processing or something, yeah?
16:50:21 [AaronSw]
umm, do you see a "create this page" link?
16:50:52 [talli]
nope
16:51:11 [AaronSw]
hmz... can you get to http://admin.logicerror.com/talli/index/edit ?
16:51:49 [talli]
hmm... it gives me a weird error
16:51:55 [talli]
saying i supplied two names
16:52:02 [AaronSw]
eh?
16:52:13 [AaronSw]
what's the exact text?
16:52:44 [talli]
it first takes me to a login page...
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andyn has quit
16:52:55 [talli]
then i submit my info and...
16:52:55 [talli]
it gives me this..
16:52:55 [talli]
We had a problem processing your entry:
16:52:56 [talli]
You've supplied two values for 'name'
16:52:56 [talli]
Please back up using your browser, correct it, and resubmit your entry.
16:52:56 [talli]
Thank you.
16:53:09 [AaronSw]
that's odd... you have cookies enabled, right?
16:53:20 [talli]
i do, i think. lemme check again
16:57:05 [talli]
ok, now i have it
16:57:16 [talli]
i had a weird preference for my cookies
17:07:04 [AaronSw]
ah
17:07:59 [talli]
i dunno, aaron. ETP has a lot more functionality than what you've got there. it's still in its infancy, though. but it's got wizards for new pages or directories, you can name pages, create content types easily, etc.
17:08:19 [AaronSw]
Oh, i'm not disagreeing about functionality
17:08:23 [talli]
it's really is a RAD tool as well since you can create content types as well.
17:09:45 [AaronSw]
Yeah, the content types bit is nice... but can you do queries on those content types?
17:09:50 [AaronSw]
user-end searches?
17:09:52 [talli]
yeah
17:09:53 [AaronSw]
sorting, etc.
17:10:29 [talli]
it's all in the content repository, so the content will be implicitly included in the full site search. is that what you mean?
17:10:54 [AaronSw]
err, no. I want to have the user be able to create a page with the five newest delis in Chicago which are certified Kosher.
17:11:27 [AaronSw]
(assuming that you have a database of restaurants with all that information)
17:11:53 [talli]
well, there are two approaches to that...
17:12:31 [talli]
ETP is an interface to the content repository. if you want to build a specific table in the DB for that kind of app, I would imagine you might do it in the CR so that it is included in searche
17:12:52 [talli]
then you could use ETP as an interface to that DB
17:13:16 [talli]
or, you may want to build your own interface because that table is in fact rather specific and special data.
17:13:32 [AaronSw]
right, but i want someone who doesn't know SQL and has never used a database to build this table thru a generic interface
17:13:33 [talli]
so ETP is a RAD for very generic and easy content types - articles, news, etc.
17:13:58 [talli]
we are talking about that.
17:14:11 [AaronSw]
ok
17:14:18 [talli]
what you're basically talking about is building a database table on the fly
17:14:49 [AaronSw]
yup
17:15:05 [talli]
luke mentioned that his approach with etp is such that an app like that might make it easy to do such a thing
17:16:04 [talli]
however, it could be kinda tough. how heavy will the db be? how scalable can it be? how good can a person who doesn't know sql be at data modeling, and if they are good how do you accomodate building a serious data model through a web interface?
17:16:18 [talli]
anyway, it's open source, so if you want, go ahead and figure it out :)
17:16:47 [AaronSw]
it all hooks into RDF, which is why I'm interested in it.
17:17:06 [AaronSw]
we should give regular people the power to data model, and build dynamic scalable databases that don't require a fixed schema
17:17:08 [talli]
does RDF provide a spec for doing this type of thing?
17:17:13 [AaronSw]
yes
17:17:23 [AaronSw]
well, it depends what you mean by a spec
17:17:24 [talli]
can you direct me to something?
17:17:38 [talli]
a standard, a procedure, dunno, anything?
17:17:38 [AaronSw]
RDF is a format for describing things in a far looser way than SQL tables
17:17:52 [AaronSw]
people are building databases, query engines, web interfaces on top of it
17:18:21 [talli]
where can i learn more about it?
17:18:27 [AaronSw]
You might be able to find some good stuff at http://www.w3.org/RDF/
17:19:50 [talli]
cool, thanks
17:20:20 [AaronSw]
sure. here's hoping it'll start some ideas flying
17:20:31 [AaronSw]
you may also like http://logicerror.com/semanticWeb-long (which I wrote)
17:20:35 [talli]
yeah, i actually have a very good idea of where we can apply some of this stuff.
17:22:30 [AaronSw]
great!
17:23:23 [talli]
i need to head out, but i'll talk to you more about it later.
17:23:24 [talli]
see ya
17:23:29 [AaronSw]
bye
17:23:30 [talli]
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17:23:55 [GEM]
Aaron: Hmm. I have thoughts that something similar would help some schemes that I am working on (like your "recently-added kosher delis" :-)
17:24:12 [AaronSw]
cool
17:24:49 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw is working on picking more memorable examples
17:25:08 [AaronSw]
let me know if there's something i can do to help you learn about rdf/semantic web technology
17:25:38 [GEM]
sure will do!
17:26:24 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw is starting to feel like a salesman... gotta work on that :)
17:26:24 [GEM]
oh, my...sorry - I just pictured a version in my framework that would be terribly frightening
17:26:54 [GEM]
why do you want a different example? it sounds like a memorable one and reasonable to me
17:27:12 [AaronSw]
err no, i mean this is a good example, my previous ones were much more boring
17:27:19 [AaronSw]
so i'm improving :-)
17:27:43 [GEM]
Ah, OK. that makes sense
17:28:35 [GEM]
Hmm. mind a suggestion for the first sentence of your semantic web paper? "Recently" relative to when?
17:29:00 [AaronSw]
Recently is one of those words that means just about any time ;-)
17:29:40 [AaronSw]
good point. I'll take it out.
17:30:26 [GEM]
Actually, I was hoping that you'd anchor the paper more firmly, like "In 2001" or "In 1997"
17:31:04 [AaronSw]
Well, I wrote the paper in 2001, but I don't want to make people feel that they're "left out"
17:31:30 [GEM]
these papers describing the new features of HTML (like tables) that are still out there really want some indication of when they were created
17:31:52 [AaronSw]
Yeah, I date-mark all my pages at the bottom
17:31:58 [AaronSw]
Last Modified: 2001-08-30 13:29:35
17:32:10 [GEM]
I understand, and your "last edted" at the bottom is handy
17:33:24 [GEM]
hmm, you must be in my time zone, or possibly one east of me and in the southern hemisphere :-)
17:33:58 [AaronSw]
I'm in Central, but apparently my server shares a time zone with you
17:34:27 [GEM]
Ahh, yes, the fallacy of assuming that the user's time is the same as the computer's :-)
17:34:33 [AaronSw]
:-)
17:34:46 [GEM]
hmm. blogspace is ACS under the hood?
17:34:58 [AaronSw]
It really worked badly when I was hosting a website for a Chicago-located fan club in eastern time :-)
17:35:14 [AaronSw]
ACS: yes, at least for now -- i'm porting it to python to make it easier to run standalone
17:35:14 [chump]
Label ACS not found.
17:35:56 [GEM]
interesting. I will probably want to talk to you about stuff lots, then...
17:36:09 [AaronSw]
cool
17:36:43 [GEM]
I have some thoughts/hopes/dreams about setting up a large site with the ability of users to maintain their own web sites through their browsers
17:36:53 [AaronSw]
Yes!
17:37:04 [AaronSw]
Have you seen editthispage.com?
17:38:13 [GEM]
some, but not totally yet, though I was the third (I think) person to comment on etp.museatech.com :-)
17:38:34 [AaronSw]
etp.museatech.net = editthispage.com
17:38:40 [AaronSw]
err s/=/!=/
17:39:47 [GEM]
I realize, butthought that etp.museatech is suposed to be at least a subset of editthispage.com's abilities, implemented in ACS
17:39:58 [AaronSw]
right
17:40:01 [GEM]
chump: view
17:40:14 [AaronSw]
chump:view
17:40:49 [AaronSw]
hmm
17:40:58 [GEM]
hmm. chump didn't note your reference to the page earlier
17:41:19 [AaronSw]
http://www.w3.org/RDF/
17:41:19 [chump]
A: http://www.w3.org/RDF/ from AaronSw
17:41:24 [AaronSw]
A:|RDF Homepage
17:41:25 [AaronSw]
http://logicerror.com/semanticWeb-long
17:41:30 [chump]
titled item A
17:41:32 [chump]
B: http://logicerror.com/semanticWeb-long from AaronSw
17:41:40 [AaronSw]
B:|The Semantic Web in Depth
17:41:40 [chump]
titled item B
17:41:54 [GEM]
ahh...only recognizes them in the start of things?
17:41:58 [AaronSw]
yep
17:42:34 [GEM]
OK. bots that allow storing information are so handy
17:42:44 [AaronSw]
yep, yep
17:43:07 [GEM]
I forget - is chump
17:43:13 [GEM]
's stuff visible on the web?
17:43:23 [AaronSw]
yes...
17:43:32 [AaronSw]
http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
17:43:32 [chump]
C: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog from AaronSw
17:43:36 [AaronSw]
oops
17:43:37 [GEM]
thanks
17:43:55 [GEM]
was trying to get chump to disgorge the info, but failing
17:46:01 [GEM]
Oh, that's *nice* I will have to suggest that to the maintainer of bots on other channels I frequent
17:47:54 [AaronSw]
C:It's been recently redesigned, so feel free to let me know if you have comments/suggestions
17:47:54 [chump]
commented item C
17:49:17 [AaronSw]
C:Oops
17:49:17 [chump]
commented item C
17:49:21 [AaronSw]
B:It's been recently redesigned, so feel free to let me know if you have comments/suggestions
17:49:22 [chump]
commented item B
17:49:31 [AaronSw]
C:|Please ignore
17:49:32 [chump]
titled item C
17:52:06 [GEM]
One thing - in Netscape 4.73 on Win98 with 128MB of memory, I see "Todays post2001/08/292001/08/282001/08/27" just like that
17:56:06 [AaronSw]
Hmm, your browser must not support CSS or something
17:57:05 [GEM]
likely not. it's a fairly oldish one, but generally works pretty well
18:10:48 [GEM]
I have recently started hotsyncing again after a long time using just the CF backups
18:10:51 [GEM]
oops!
18:21:39 [talli]
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18:27:08 [GEM]
wheee! I looked and saw the guy from the homeowners' association who is responsible for the painters inspecting their work, so I got to tell him about the problems that I've had
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22:05:52 [Psychephylax]
my head hurts
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23:31:27 [davb]
GEM I'll debug the setup on that page. (ircblgo)
23:34:20 [davb]
AHA! The tags are <br/> which breaks old browsers. I can do <br /> and still be valid XML right?
23:34:46 [AaronSw]
yep
23:35:32 [davb]
weird. The XSL stylesheet has <br /> everywhere..... I don't know why it was compress out. ns_xml must have done it.
23:35:41 [davb]
ARGH.
23:35:56 [davb]
* davb wishes TclXML C version was done so it could become an AOLserver module
23:36:11 [davb]
Could be libxml or libxslt bug too...
23:37:01 [vinod]
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23:37:06 [davb]
Hi vinod!
23:37:28 [vinod]
hey dave!
23:38:34 [vinod]
i think i finally got the ticket tracker working!!
23:39:11 [davb]
Yippee!
23:40:13 [vinod]
i had finished it a while ago, but it took time to get all the pieces that it required working (i.e. acs-mail, acs-workflow, notifications, etc)
23:40:42 [vinod]
but i think it's actually working now. now i need to figure out how to extend it for the sdm
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23:44:11 [davb]
So we are looking at a whole new SDM?
23:48:03 [markd]
cool!
23:48:14 [markd]
We can call the beta version BSDM
23:53:42 [davb]
Cool there is a xsltproc command line tool. I can use it to test libxslt.
23:57:05 [vinod]
markd: they should put you in charge of marketing
23:57:35 [vinod]
get the new BSDM at arse-digita.com ;-)
23:57:54 [markd]
lol
23:59:06 [vinod]
davb: i'm not exactly sure which path we'll take. either mold the 3.x sdm into a 4.x package. or build from scratch using the existing 4.x packages as a framework (ticket-tracker, download, etc.)