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02:48:09 <GEM> hm.  Postgresql 7.1R4 in debian testing...
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03:16:21 <rbm> moo
04:01:57 <MadDucks> Hey Roberto ;)
04:06:31 <rbm> hey mackducks
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06:34:05 <PascalS> moning y'all
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10:23:11 <tdxdave> wow great attendance.
10:23:20 <PascalS> yeah. 
10:23:38 <PascalS> were some nice discussions here yesterday
10:23:53 <tdxdave> I'll have to check the logs.
10:24:30 <PascalS> we need some non-techie to round those up and write a small summary or something.
10:26:49 <bbaquiran> good evening. I missed the discussions yesterday.
10:30:56 <tdxdave> Right, us coders are way too busy for that kind of stuff :)
10:31:44 <PascalS> no, not too busy. But it might make some people feel more useful.
10:32:27 <PascalS> OTOH, non-techies writing about coding tends to give strange results
10:33:07 <djg> PascalS: examples ;)
10:33:49 <PascalS> nothing at hand, just remember your last meeting with a sales person.
10:36:37 <djg> is zope big in the netherlands?
10:36:57 <PascalS> dunno. never visit dutch sites :)
10:37:39 <PascalS> Most friends who code tend to work for universities or they are M$-ies
10:38:21 <djg> b/c it is pretty damn big in germany
10:38:31 <djg> recently another book on it was published
10:38:56 <PascalS> I've never actually seen zope.
10:39:33 <djg> www.linux-community.de is a nice site with ugly colors
10:39:41 <djg> but good functionality
10:42:17 <tdxdave> We must defeat zope! :) Get back to porting
10:43:04 <PascalS> ehrm, personally I don't care about defeating anything. Healthy competition is good
10:43:14 <djg> tdxdave: i was just wondering ;) wherever you go, the zope guys are there
10:43:32 <djg> something about zope must be very attractive
10:44:05 <PascalS> less complex to install, more out-of-the box.
10:44:11 <tdxdave> Of course competition is good. 
10:44:18 <PascalS> that were its major points IIRC
10:44:32 <tdxdave> I don't think it has more out of the box. Just that it is easier to get it to do something out of the box.
10:44:39 <djg> u sure? b/c it seems that a) zope is much more proprietary than acs and b) the learning curve is really step
10:44:45 <djg> s/step/steep/
10:45:19 <PascalS> those were the arguments I last heard. as i said, no personal experience here.
10:45:37 <tdxdave> I will find out. I never explored Zope I found ACS and stuck with it.
10:46:40 <tdxdave> argh! broken link on Zope web site to Developr's Overview...
10:46:41 <PascalS> be sure to find out what they find attractive from the marketing point of view, technology wise we're probably not too far apart.
10:47:02 <tdxdave> Well their web site has alot more news type stuff on the home page.
10:47:14 <tdxdave> It seems to have more "projects" going on by the look of the home page.
10:47:22 <PascalS> that makes it look more active
10:47:36 <tdxdave> OpenACS really needs to have people work with the community more on their modules.
10:47:39 <PascalS> we should call all the modules 'projects' and see who has more.
10:48:06 <tdxdave> It seems that most people build it and then offer to the community (of course that is because of client requirements)
10:48:22 <tdxdave> But we don't list activity about modules on the home page.
10:48:44 <PascalS> we probly should.
10:48:53 <tdxdave> THe home page it 95% static. Well anyway Openacs.Org is getting redone. We already know that.
10:49:23 <PascalS> yes, but more news on the front page is important, whe should tell talli
10:49:39 <PascalS> if he doesn't know yet
10:49:51 <tdxdave> Zope can be used with most popular web servers.
10:50:11 <PascalS> that's because it's PHP, right?
10:50:18 <tdxdave> And it uses Python, a very popular language. Unfortunately.
10:50:27 <PascalS> :)
10:50:34 <tdxdave> Unfortunately that matters to most people.
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10:51:14 <tdxdave> Plus there are links to 3 articles on the users overview page. How many OpenACS articles are there on independent developer news sites?
10:51:28 <rzolf> hello
10:51:55 <PascalS> ehrm, we'd have to take ACS/Tcl articles and then there are quite a few
10:52:02 <tdxdave> I think its a general marketing thing. We have all been busy just getting work done. If someone looks and they are right for OpenACS they know it and stick around.
10:52:15 <djg> yeah that's funny how many ppl choke once you use the word "AOLserver"..."Aol-what?"
10:52:23 <tdxdave> Really? Are there that many ACS articles out there?
10:52:40 <tdxdave> If so I just missed them.
10:52:41 <PascalS> * PascalS found out that rzolf is '* I'm to lame to read BitchX.doc *' according to his name pty
10:52:53 <rzolf> i am too lame to read bitchx.doc
10:53:09 <djg> tdxdave: there's a few I worked on - in german
10:53:15 <djg> and a few articles on arsdigita
10:54:01 <PascalS> we should as the aD marketeers for a copy of their article clippings. 
10:54:12 <PascalS> Aolserver does tend to scare ppl
10:54:32 <PascalS> rz: it's worth it.
10:54:38 <djg> oh and let's net forget malte's (and mine) article on Knowledge Management
10:54:39 <rzolf> ;-)
10:54:46 <djg> that can be repeated endlessly
10:54:55 <PascalS> and The Book.
10:55:02 <djg> which Book?
10:55:04 <rzolf> when is the german KM module going to be released?
10:55:06 <PascalS> The Book
10:55:19 <PascalS> the (Open)ACS bible
10:55:25 <rzolf> rzolf is now known as rolfhanson
10:55:46 <PascalS> rh: that makes more sense
10:56:02 <rolfhanson> i will change my ircname sometime.
10:56:06 <rolfhanson> but i dont irc that much.
10:56:07 <PascalS> everybody here knows abut nickserv? to protect your nick name?
10:57:26 <PascalS> does anybody know the Tcl codepage name for us-ascii?
10:57:54 <PascalS> for 'encoding system "us-ascii"' 
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11:00:02 <rolfhanson> pascal, i do not.
11:03:03 <rolfhanson> hm
11:03:20 <PascalS> Anyone read this yet: http://davenet.userland.com/2001/07/17/distributedMembershipAndPreferences
11:03:40 <PascalS> passport.com, but then open
11:04:17 <PascalS> we should do stuff like that. that would be a USP
11:04:23 <djg> yes, also check dotgnu.org
11:04:27 <rolfhanson> i'm not sure it is so easy
11:04:47 <rolfhanson> some company in san francisco tried to hire me to do that back in september
11:04:55 <rolfhanson> they arent even close to having anything done
11:05:06 <djg> passport.com sounds like it will fail in germany anyway
11:05:19 <rolfhanson> i'm not convinced passport is going to go anywhere
11:05:23 <PascalS> passport.com is not legal in the EU, IMO
11:05:42 <PascalS> When it comes to preferences that is.
11:05:45 <djg> PascalS: might be
11:06:02 <djg> it certainly is not compliant with german law if servers were parked in germany
11:06:15 <djg> s/certainly/probably/
11:06:25 <PascalS> djg: same here in .nl
11:07:19 <rolfhanson> in japan, no one uses credit cards or uses the internet for anything besides email.
11:07:24 <rolfhanson> so it doesnt matter.
11:07:34 <PascalS> .gnu sounds like a good thing to follow closely, see how it develops.
11:07:51 <PascalS> rh: u in .jp?
11:07:58 <rolfhanson> yes
11:08:58 <djg> that was an alienating experience in japan: visa cards are completely useless in jp (being almost useless in germany) 
11:09:13 <rolfhanson> yes, they are.
11:09:44 <rolfhanson> however it is kind of nice not thinking about paying my credit card bill
11:09:54 <PascalS> I pay with visa in germany sometimes.
11:10:23 <PascalS> but almost everything is direct-debit in .nl
11:11:19 <PascalS> the digital/chipcard cash initiatives are very unsuccessful in .nl because every always uses direct-debit
11:11:34 <djg> what is direct-debit?
11:11:42 <djg> EuroCard in Germany?
11:11:42 <rolfhanson> cash card
11:11:55 <djg> or wait: we call it EC-Karte
11:11:56 <rolfhanson> no one even uses debit cards in japan.
11:12:06 <rolfhanson> they just carry around cash.
11:12:10 <PascalS> djg: yes
11:12:31 <PascalS> * PascalS thinks cash sucks.
11:12:56 <rolfhanson> cash is ok.
11:13:18 <rolfhanson> it sucks in the US, because someone will rob you.
11:13:43 <rolfhanson> it sucks in europe because there is different cash everywhere you go
11:13:43 <PascalS> no, you got to keep getting it from somewhere. debit is safer. Leaves a trail though.
11:14:12 <rolfhanson> it is ok.
11:14:21 <rolfhanson> not ideal, but not so bad.
11:14:37 <rolfhanson> passport is not so interesting, anyway.
11:14:37 <PascalS> In some shops in germany, france and switzerland I can even use my dutch debit cards. very cool
11:15:23 <PascalS> things like distributed KM and bboards might be intersting
11:15:35 <rolfhanson> businesses are only interested in it for directed marketin purposes.
11:15:38 <djg> PascalS: i think you can use dutch debit-cards anywhere in germany
11:15:43 <rolfhanson> and marketing is not interesting.
11:15:56 <djg> rolfhanson: and different currencies...will disappear in a few months
11:16:11 <tdxdave> Sure. userland needs distributed login because there are a jillion Manila web sites and to join a discussion you need to login to each one.
11:16:30 <PascalS> dirk: only in bank machines, not all EC-Karte machines in shops accept them.
11:16:49 <tdxdave> OpenACS will have distributed features. We are putting XMLRPC in and SOAP will be in there too.
11:16:50 <rolfhanson> that is ok, but i dont think microsoft cares about userland, aside from possible license fees
11:17:15 <djg> what is userland anyway?
11:17:23 <tdxdave> SOftware company.
11:17:25 <rolfhanson> i'm just saying passport = boring, yet it gets tons of press, so all the opensource people start thinking about it
11:17:39 <rolfhanson> when they could be thinking about building stuff that is ACTUALLY interesting
11:17:41 <bbaquiran> they did the spec for xml-rpc
11:17:44 <djg> i mean...i have seen lotsa (good) postings by Dave Winer...
11:17:47 <rolfhanson> like...knowledge management
11:18:09 <tdxdave> They make a quick content management called Manila.
11:18:16 <djg> rpc as in remote procedure calls?
11:18:24 <tdxdave> Someone is building a simlar product into OpenACS.
11:18:29 <tdxdave> djg: yes.
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11:18:43 <PascalS> I did some SOAP, but even M$ didn't have their libs ready 6 months ago. It was NOT anywhere near transparent.
11:19:18 <tdxdave> XMLRPC is better than SOAP for almost everything.
11:19:28 <bbaquiran> it's certainly a lot simpler
11:20:07 <tdxdave> It is better becuase it is simpler. INteroperability is way easier. That is why you use it.
11:20:20 <PascalS> simplicity is not really an issue, if your language supports native SOAP/XML-RPC calls
11:20:29 <tdxdave> You don't need to know that the other end is using AOLserver/Tcl or ACS/Java or Zope.
11:20:46 <bbaquiran> PascalS: correct
11:20:47 <tdxdave> PascalS: thats what Dave Winer wants.
11:21:20 <djg> souds like a fancier version of RSS
11:21:24 <djg> I like RSS
11:21:30 <PascalS> RSS?
11:21:31 <djg> it's so simple and usable
11:21:34 <bbaquiran> is anyone working on XML-RPC or SOAP for AOLserver?
11:22:33 <djg> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/namespace.html
11:23:35 <djg> i havent used it in my software
11:23:46 <djg> but it looks very convincing b/C it is so simple
11:23:53 <PascalS> brb
11:24:33 <tdxdave> bbaquiran: I am
11:24:41 <tdxdave> XMLRPC is working great. 
11:25:05 <djg> tdxdave: can you point me to a website for introductory reading?
11:25:16 <bbaquiran> www.xmlrpc.org
11:25:23 <tdxdave> check out http://openacs.org/sdm/one-package.tcl?package_id=12
11:26:36 <bbaquiran> tdxdave: is this a server or client (or both?)
11:26:39 <tdxdave> RSS is also going into OpenACS
11:27:54 <tdxdave> when I get around to it. 
11:28:31 <tdxdave> Next week I will get back to work on this stuff.
11:31:06 <PascalS> does it mean that with OACS-XMLRPC I can externally execute ANY command?
11:31:26 <PascalS> (apart from access restrictions)
11:32:50 <tdxdave> If it is available via XMLRPC
11:33:22 <PascalS> I meant OpenACS/Tcl commands, of course
11:33:30 <tdxdave> It just processes the remote procedure calls. You have to build the procedures to know what to do with it.
11:33:56 <djg> do you have examples for it?
11:34:00 <tdxdave> But basically the ns_xmlrpc takes a remote call and runs the Tcl command with the parameters you send.
11:34:06 <djg> (can find them on www.xmlrpc.org prolly)
11:34:18 <tdxdave> The examples are in there, but do not use OpenACS yet.
11:35:14 <PascalS> is there going to be a reserved URL stub or something? or is it a content type thing?
11:35:51 <tdxdave> a registered proc handls all calls to /RPC2
11:36:06 <tdxdave> that is the common convention of XMLRPC.
11:36:26 <PascalS> ah. okay.
11:37:04 <PascalS> login is through basic-authentication or cookies?
11:37:06 <tdxdave> You could make a URL for different types of calls if you needed it.
11:37:28 <tdxdave> authentications is not handled by XMLRPC. 
11:37:52 <PascalS> not even guide lines?
11:38:18 <tdxdave> PascalS: Nope. Whatever procedures you call with it should handle the authtentication.
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11:38:43 <tdxdave> PascalS: that is why it is so light.
11:39:05 <PascalS> dave: Hmmm. thats going to be a bad thing for XMLRPC then
11:39:53 <PascalS> even when we have XMLRPC, we still need to know which auth-mechanism each and every other site uses.
11:40:22 <tdxdave> not really. 
11:40:29 <PascalS> ?
11:40:33 <tdxdave> they don't have to expose their internal structure.
11:41:13 <tdxdave> If you expose a procedure to the world via XMLRPC you have to specify what parameters you acceot with it.
11:41:29 <PascalS> what kind of highlevel transport is defined for XML-RPC? just HTTP or also SMTP et al.? 
11:41:31 <tdxdave> So if you need username/password, the caller sends it.
11:41:51 <tdxdave> XMLRPC just uses HTTP. Although it can be used with others, its not in the spec. 
11:42:06 <tdxdave> For anything more complex, you need SOAP.
11:42:12 <tdxdave> or something else.
11:42:20 <PascalS> or just XMLRPC++
11:42:40 <tdxdave> Of course, but Dave Winer trademarked XMLRPC I think.
11:43:14 <PascalS> a call like 'ns_xmlrpc login my.server.com pascal sillypassword' would be very useful
11:44:20 <tdxdave> PascalS: xmlrpc doesn't define that. You can call any procedure you want to define. So if the server has a method called "login" you can call it.
11:44:44 <tdxdave> PascalS: but you are right ns_xmlrpc specifically could be made a little easier to use.
11:45:25 <PascalS> problem is, ns_xmlrpc doesn't know which parameters will be username/password.
11:46:40 <tdxdave> Aha. XMLRPC parameters are ordered, not named.
11:47:07 <PascalS> like any ordinary language.
11:47:50 <tdxdave> SO you have to pass them in the correct order and number.
11:48:03 <PascalS> jah.
11:48:48 <tdxdave> I wonder how Python is baking in XMLRPC to the standard distribution. Specifically how they handle XML parsing.
11:49:20 <tdxdave> It would be nice to have to built into Tcl too. But I think we want to use AOLservers HTTP services.
11:50:06 <tdxdave> Next week I should have a version of ns_xmlrpc what will work with any AOLserver and nsxml, without OpenACS (it uses 2 procs I think from OpenACS)
11:50:46 <PascalS> the actual handling of xml should be in Tcl probly. No need to do it in Aolserver
11:51:00 <tdxdave> But then its s...l...o...w
11:51:12 <tdxdave> unless you use an external parser written in C.
11:51:14 <PascalS> I don't understand why we have ns_xml instead of a xml package for tcl...
11:51:38 <PascalS> no, I meant in C but as an Tcl package
11:51:52 <PascalS> not an aolserver module
11:53:31 <PascalS> ppl are talking about authentication on the xmlrpc list
11:54:19 <tdxdave> Aha. Well tclxml and tcldoc eventually will be Tcl packages that use external C parsers.
11:54:56 <tdxdave> I would like to use them. Much nicer interfaces.
11:55:01 <tdxdave> tclxml.sourceforge.net
11:55:21 <PascalS> thats what i meant. Maybe an aolserver module is simpler to build than vanilla Tcl package (i'v never tried)
11:56:08 <tdxdave> AOLserver doesn't like Tcl packages right now. Maybe 4.0
11:56:15 <tdxdave> will be better.
11:56:43 <PascalS> Hmmm. didn't know that.
12:06:16 <tdxdave> Well it is more like it doesn't know what to do with them.
12:06:25 <tdxdave> * tdxdave has to go to work.
12:06:33 <tdxdave> I will be back in about an hour.
12:06:34 <PascalS> * PascalS was already working again
12:06:43 <PascalS> i'll be here
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12:22:09 <zzzirk> moo rbm
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13:08:59 <tdxdave> PascalS: here is your secure authenticated XMLRPC: Thought I mention PKI in the mix. PKI is public key infrastructure. I've been
13:08:59 <tdxdave> +working on PKI ecosystem for nearly a month. I'm also going to make a draft
13:08:59 <tdxdave> +version of GXMP. GXMP is an extension to XML-RPC that has the following feature
13:08:59 <tdxdave> +security token, public key, routing, and digital signature.
13:09:10 <tdxdave> from the xmlrpc mailing list.
13:09:36 <PascalS> I know PKI. 
13:10:49 <PascalS> But x.509v3 doesn't cut it. We need something like SPKI or PGP/GPG infrastructures
13:11:38 <tdxdave> Ok. I'll take your word for it. Thats not my area.
13:12:14 <PascalS> The problem with PKI is nobody is willing (right fully so) to trust companies like verisign 100% (remember the Microsoft fiasco, where they 
13:13:44 <tdxdave> Right.
13:13:51 <PascalS> just a sec
13:13:54 <PascalS> brb
13:31:37 <PascalS> took a bit longer - that was my wife asking about strong encryption with GPG :)
13:32:06 <tdxdave> Cool. My wife does not ask about encryptiopn. 
13:32:20 <PascalS> verisign actually issued a certificate to someone pretending to be M$. They revoked the certificate, but the damage has been done.
13:32:40 <PascalS> my wife even groks databases (and is not a CS graduate)
13:34:11 <PascalS> GXMP is probly a not so good idea, there are already other XML-crypto initiatives.
13:34:12 <tdxdave> Yes, every time I get something frm MS in IE I check to make sure it is not one of those certificates.
13:34:35 <PascalS> Just download and enable CRL support. 
13:34:45 <PascalS> It's in your internet explorer options.
13:34:54 <PascalS> But nobody enables that :(
13:35:06 <PascalS> that's why PKI has sorta failed.
13:35:42 <tdxdave> Cool. Never heard of it.
13:35:54 <PascalS> see what i mean?
13:36:26 <PascalS> it's under the security heading in advanced options.
13:36:58 <djg> what is crl?
13:37:08 <PascalS> Certificate Revocation List
13:37:12 <djg> ah
13:37:18 <djg> i'm on mozuilla
13:37:21 <djg> hooked on mozilla
13:37:32 <PascalS> has support for it too.
13:37:35 <tdxdave> I usually use Opera myself.
13:37:41 <djg> what about cookies in the netherlands?
13:37:46 <PascalS> Dont have mozilla handy here, so cant check it.
13:37:49 <djg> are they enabled by defaultin IE?
13:38:10 <djg> b/c in germany they arent
13:38:11 <PascalS> yes, why shouldn't they be enabled?
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13:38:24 <djg> they are set to "Ask me before I accept"
13:38:37 <PascalS> crossite cookies arent, AFAIK
13:39:34 <djg> that's only in the germany german IE
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13:39:44 <djg> not in the austrian german or swiss-german ie
13:40:06 <PascalS> ah. well I tend to not use translated software. 
13:40:15 <PascalS> My windows has been US/UK
13:41:35 <djg> yes mozilla has crl too
13:41:44 <PascalS> good. 
13:42:34 <PascalS> There is a small chance that I will work on OpenACS/(S)PKI integration, including issueing certificates
13:43:07 <PascalS> last time I checked the libs had not been completed, so I postponed my efforts
13:43:50 <PascalS> My project could use something that is a bit better (though by no means perfect) than passwords.
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14:16:03 <PascalS> djg: I got no reply from bogdan@
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15:39:24 <jmarsden> Greetings porters... anyone know the status of a non-interactive OpenACS4 installer?  (So I can RPMify OpenACS4)
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15:41:07 <tdxdave> I would like one.
15:42:05 <jmarsden> I remember someone (Don?) saying there were plans for one, way back, but I was wondering if anyone had actually made progress with the non-interactive installer since then...
15:42:31 <tdxdave> I haven't heard about it. It would be very useful.
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15:43:27 <jmarsden> Yes, now OpenACS4 core is mostly done, it makes sense to try and set up an easy install forit so testers can quickly get started trying it out... at least, that's my hope.
15:44:02 <jmarsden> I'll post on the bboard and see if anyone has any input there...
15:44:40 <tdxdave> It only requires a couple of clicks and entering your email/password and system info anyway.
15:45:05 <jmarsden> True, but how do I get an RPM install script to do that... :-)
15:45:27 <tdxdave> Of course.
15:46:59 <jmarsden> I could try doing a weird Perl script that pretends to be a web browser and puts in the email address of root on the local machine, and sort of fake things out that way, but it's probably not a good idea... better to have the right installer...
15:47:59 <rbm> moo
15:48:41 <jmarsden> Hi Roberto...
15:51:31 <rbm> hey dave, jmarsden
15:51:40 <rbm> jmarsden: nice to see you around here :-)
15:52:19 <jmarsden> Thought I'd try it out and see who used it. Grabbed an IRC client just to be here.
15:53:49 <markd2> excellent
15:53:56 <markd2> are you another UT cowgod?
15:56:19 <AaronSw> * AaronSw wonders if anyone else is going to the Chicago aD event tonight...
16:00:56 <markd2> too far to drive
16:01:01 <AaronSw> :-)
16:01:07 <tdxdave> me too: 
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16:04:36 <AaronSw> * AaronSw is leaching off the AirPort connection at the local Apple Market Center -- just watched the keynote
16:04:51 <tdxdave> thats cool
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16:06:39 <rbm> hey zzirk
16:06:50 <zzzirk> What's up rbm?
16:07:01 <zzzirk> I got OpenACS 4 installed on my laptop last night
16:07:11 <rbm> cool
16:07:26 <zzzirk> Problems during the installation were found in the CR and then ACS Messaging (I assume it relies on CR)
16:08:20 <zzzirk> I'm trying to get up to speed to the point that I can use it and then possibly Michael and Ben and I can start looking at maybe helping out with porting a package (or packages).
16:09:58 <rbm> Messaging relies on CR, yes
16:10:05 <rbm> cool
16:10:28 <zzzirk> I figured as much.
16:11:18 <zzzirk> I was using the 07-17 snapshot so going with CVS wouldn't have necessarily gained me anything.  Although I ought to get the code from the CVS server just so I can keep it more up to date.
16:14:05 <tdxdave> uhoh I wonder if the patchs I sent Dan broke something... 
16:14:08 <tdxdave> * tdxdave ducks
16:15:36 <zzzirk> Patches to the CR?
16:15:57 <zzzirk> rbm: How do I load packages into the system?
16:16:06 <tdxdave> I added a new version of content_item__new to support static-pages.
16:16:25 <rbm> zzzirk: I'm more into porting than using the system. 
16:16:35 <rbm> zzzirk: Go to the admin pages.
16:16:45 <rbm> (at this point at least)
16:16:50 <zzzirk> Well, when did your patch get applied?  I guess I could try an earlier snapshot.
16:17:05 <tdxdave> Its in there. what sort of error did you get?
16:17:11 <zzzirk> rbm: I mostly meant so I could try other packages out.  Do you just get them from CVS?
16:17:47 <zzzirk> tdxdave: It bombed during installation, but you know I don't recall the error.  I'm going to be doing it again some time today so I'll let you know.
16:18:11 <tdxdave> ok. I haven't reloaded the data model in a few days.
16:18:32 <zzzirk> I went through the bootstrap process if that makes any difference.
16:22:09 <zzzirk> Okay, I got the package installation figured out...
16:23:40 <zzzirk> Well, I'm kinda hosed until I get the acs-messaging package installed and it relies on content repository.  I guess I'll have to take a look into what that error might be after all.
16:23:47 <zzzirk> Sooner than I thought at least. :-)
16:24:04 <tdxdave> I am trying it right now...
16:24:43 <jmarsden> zzirk: sholdn't the error(s) be logged in your log file from when you attempted the install?
16:25:37 <zzzirk> Hmmm, probably.  Hadn't thought about looking there.  Actually, if you mean the server log then it won't be because it was logging to the screen when I did the installation.
16:26:27 <jmarsden> OK... worth checking -- easier to cut and paste from a log than to reinstall just to get the error messages :-)
16:26:32 <tdxdave> there should be error messages in the server log. 
16:26:35 <zzzirk> Simply trying to load the CR as a package after installation seems to blow up.  Don't know if that is a problem or something that shouldn't happen, but...  I'm gonna reinstall again and I'll let you know what the error is.
16:27:17 <tdxdave> CR installed out. I just checked it out from CVS. I did not update the whole tree because I haven't committed static-pages yet. (rbm: yeah I know, commit early blah blah :))
16:27:36 <tdxdave> s/out/ok
16:28:21 <zzzirk> So would that be in last night's snapshot?  I'll grab that really quick.
16:28:54 <jmarsden> Good.  actually, this is another thing a non-interactive installer would give us -- we could maybe have something that tries to install the nightly tarball just after it is made, and warns the CVS guardians if it finds that the install fails... 
16:29:08 <zzzirk> I can't get into CVS anonymously due to our nazi firewall...
16:29:19 <tdxdave> ick.
16:29:54 <jmarsden> zzzirk: you can't say ssh to some other host and set up a PPP tunnel over SSH and bypass your firewall that way ... grin?!
16:31:41 <zzzirk> I actually thought about that this morning.  I haven't tried it yet.  We do actually use that to allow ourselves to get in through our firewall from home when we need to.  I send an email to myself at work and my macyhine then opens a tunnel that I can get into.
16:32:25 <zzzirk> Ok, I'm extracting the nightly tarball right now.  The biggest problem is that my test machine right now is my old 233Mhz laptop.
16:32:36 <zzzirk> It's just kinda slow doing the install of the datamodel.
16:33:07 <jmarsden> all the more reason to deal with logs of errors rather than reinstalling every time... :-)  
16:33:59 <zzzirk> Yep, I changed it to log to a file instead of logging to the screen (no foreground mode)
16:37:10 <tdxdave> zzzirk: are you using Oracle or Postgresql?
16:37:36 <zzzirk> Postgresql.  I guess I could also set it up to work against our Oracle development box though.
16:37:48 <zzzirk> I should setup PG on that box so I could test both environments.
16:38:34 <zzzirk> It would definitely make doing these installs a lot faster (since it's a quad Xeon box ;-)
16:38:43 <tdxdave> just a little.
16:38:47 <zzzirk> hehe
16:39:10 <zzzirk> Yeah, I'll have to maybe look into doing that one of these nights if I get a chance.
16:39:16 <tdxdave> Good luck. I have to go now...
16:39:27 <zzzirk> Thanks, seeya later
16:39:39 <tdxdave> no problem.
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17:16:55 <rbm> I'm so sick of this whole thread on openacs.
17:17:25 <jmarsden> rbm the 'leadership' thread you mean?
17:18:30 <rbm> Yeah.
17:18:52 <markd2> * markd2 too
17:18:58 <jmarsden> Me too... I've carefully avoided it completely, though I did email Ben direct in response to his request...
17:19:01 <markd2> Just When You Thought It Was Ddead
17:19:01 <rbm> I think I'll stop posting to those threads completely. It's almost pointless and only generates more noise
17:19:52 <rbm> It's like a horror movie. The bad guy always comes back.
17:20:10 <jmarsden> Roberto: on a more positive topic... where are we regarding OpenACS4 user docs?
17:20:15 <markd2> * markd2 takes off his hockey mask
17:20:48 <rbm> jmarsden: Nothing has been done there, although it is _really_ necessary.
17:21:12 <rbm> I've been meaning to start the 4.x Documentation Project for weeks (months?) but didn't want to divert porting resources.
17:21:31 <jmarsden> Agreed... can you maybe publish an outline or a contents page for the documents you have in mind, or something to get that underway.
17:21:37 <jmarsden> I'm not porting... :-)
17:22:10 <rbm> jmarsden: Ahh! Sure thing!
17:22:47 <rbm> I'm trying to get exim to accept relay from my AOLserver
17:22:59 <rbm> Anyone has experience with exim?
17:24:15 <jmarsden> There's probably a #exim channel you coudl ask on?
17:24:23 <rbm> Hmmm. I think I got it
17:24:43 <rbm> Yep. Cool!
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17:24:57 <rbm> jmarsden: Good suggestion. This is OPN after all :)
17:25:11 <jmarsden> rbm: exactly :-)
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17:37:50 <djg> y
17:40:21 <markd2> !y?
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18:30:06 <zzzirk> rbm: you here anywhere?
18:30:28 <zzzirk> I'm looking for information about where errors are logged to during installation of OpenACS.
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19:07:43 <MadDucks> Is anyone working on the 4.x port?
19:09:11 <AaronSw> many people, i think
19:09:41 <MadDucks> Er, here .
19:10:13 <AaronSw> well, roberto is, and tdxdave is (but he's not here right now)
19:10:17 <MadDucks> I'm was getting ready to port Intranet, but it seems that there isn't much intranet to port :I
19:20:46 <zzzirk> The Intranet in ACS Classic 4.x is pretty much nonexistent.
19:24:20 <MadDucks> That's what I've read.
19:24:42 <MadDucks> Joy :P It looks like I'll be writing Intranet.
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19:25:04 <markd2> think of it as an Exciting Deveopment Project
19:26:14 <zzzirk> I'm sure there would be a lot of grateful consumers of such a package.
19:26:24 <MadDucks> Well, I'm not too upset about it. 3.x's intranet is the biggest kludge.
19:26:49 <zzzirk> There are a lot of nice ideas in there, but I never looked at how they were implemented.
19:26:54 <AaronSw> It's a Character Building Product
19:27:04 <MadDucks> So hopefully I can find the devel docs for 4.x on arsdigita somewhere and build it up from there.
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19:33:01 <zzzirk> I'll restate my earlier question now that a few people have joined:
19:33:15 <zzzirk> I'm looking for information about where errors are logged to during installation of OpenACS.
19:33:40 <markd2> MadDucks : drop some mail to aegrumet@arsdigita.com.  I think he worked on the 4.x intranet
19:34:00 <rbm> zzzirk: I don't know if there are other logs besides the server log
19:34:35 <zzzirk> Well, in the server log I don't get anything about any error really...  I can give you a log snippet if you want, but I can't seem to see any real error message.
19:35:12 <rbm> How about the error log?
19:36:03 <zzzirk> Well, which log is which.  One seems to be an access log and the other is server log.  Let me look though.
19:37:50 <zzzirk> I only have two log files, one is access log and the other is server log
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19:40:35 <jmarsden> zzzirk: try grep Error *log and see what shows up
19:41:38 <zzzirk> I have 4 entries in openacs-4-error.log (which is the server log)
19:43:14 <jmarsden> OK, are they huge or can you paste any that look interesting here?
19:43:24 <zzzirk> Here are the results of my grep:
19:44:38 <zzzirk> openacs-4-error.log:<p> Error:
19:44:55 <zzzirk> back in a sec.
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19:45:39 <zzzirk_slc> Okay, here is a snippet from a log file:
19:45:57 <zzzirk_slc> [18/Jul/2001:11:45:32][25643.4101][-conn0-] Notice: DROP
19:45:57 <zzzirk_slc> [18/Jul/2001:11:45:32][25643.4101][-conn0-] Notice: <p><font color=red>Acs-content-repository not installed.</font>
19:45:57 <zzzirk_slc> <p> Error:
19:45:57 <zzzirk_slc> <pre><blockquote></blockquote></pre>
19:45:59 <zzzirk_slc> [18/Jul/2001:11:45:32][25643.4101][-conn0-] Notice: <p><li>Installing data model for ACS Messaging 4.1.1...
19:46:13 <zzzirk_slc> Notice it says *Error* on one line
19:46:25 <zzzirk_slc> and then the next thing is Installing ACS Messaging...
19:46:53 <zzzirk_slc> Not very clear what the heck is going on.  Am I forgetting some importatnt step in the installation?  Everything else seems to go pretty smooth.
19:48:07 <jmarsden> That does look strange. Does acs-messaging rely on acs-content-repository??
19:48:17 <zzzirk_slc> Yep it does.
19:48:25 <zzzirk_slc> And it obviously fails after that point as well.
19:48:39 <jmarsden> So the real issue is what caused the notice about "Acs-content-repository not installed"
19:48:57 <jmarsden> The case of the Acs-content-respository is unusual...
19:49:09 <jmarsden> upper case A lower case cs... why?
19:49:11 <zzzirk_slc> Exactly!
19:49:29 <rbm> typo?
19:49:43 <jmarsden> OK, stand by while I search for that exact string in the CVS copy IO haev here...
19:51:01 <jmarsden> I'm not seeing that string with that case at all.
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19:51:20 <jmarsden> zzzirk: did you have to type in tht package name somewhere?? and did you type it with that case??
19:51:35 <zzzirk_slc> No I didn't.
19:51:59 <jmarsden> OK, can you cd to the top of yoru CVS tree (or unpacket tarball) and do:
19:52:10 <jmarsden>  grep -rl Acs-content-repository *
19:52:18 <jmarsden> and see what filenames if any come back?
19:52:22 <zzzirk_slc> I got the CVS try just this morning.
19:52:42 <jmarsden> Me too... but that string came from *somewhere*!
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19:52:52 <zzzirk_slc> I get nothing back.
19:53:07 <zzzirk_slc> It looks like it could be [string totitle ...] results
19:53:30 <jmarsden> Hmmm... yes, that could be it.
19:53:48 <jmarsden> Can you manually attempt to install acs-content-repository. and what happens when you try?
19:54:13 <zzzirk_slc> Not that it would necessarily help, but I can let you step through the install and see what I get back during the bootstrap if you want.
19:54:54 <jmarsden> I'm probably not the best person to do that with... I'm not an OpenACS4 guru (yet?)
19:55:44 <zzzirk_slc> Well, I've been working on an ACS Classic 4.x project for the past 5 months so I've not followed OpenACS porting like I'd like to have so I'm not really up to much either.
19:56:38 <jmarsden> Are there any clues in the log file earlier than the notice that it didn't install the CR that shed some light on this?
19:56:50 <jmarsden> such as why it didn't install it :-)
19:58:24 <zzzirk_slc> Not that I can really see.  I do get some sort of abort statements in a couple of places...  Hang on I'm trying to determine where.
19:59:05 <zzzirk_slc> I did find a couple instances of "string totitle ..." in acs-content-repository directory
20:01:35 <jmarsden> CHeck out those aborts, sound smore likely a source of trouble to me...
20:03:01 <zzzirk_slc> I'm doing a little more checking in that area. 
20:03:24 <zzzirk_slc> Right before the aborts start there are a string of calls to acs_object_type__create_type and I'm looking into those.
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20:10:16 <rbm> * rbm goes to class
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20:20:37 <GEM> Hi markd and steveW
20:21:05 <steveW> Hi, got here just in time to miss all the action
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23:24:28 <rbm> These disconnects are annoying
23:25:53 <GEM> Hi ROberto!
23:26:09 <GEM> Brazil was amazing, incidentally
23:37:47 <GEM> Hi hal
23:37:50 <GEM> oops
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23:52:09 <gilbertw> rbm: are you managing this doc: http://openacs.org/4/porting-resources.html
23:53:07 <rbm> gilbertw: yeah
23:53:21 <rbm> It's authored by Vinod tho.
23:53:28 <rbm> I need to get comments going there
23:54:17 <gilbertw> ok.  there's a thread on the QE and QD that I started.  Don's updated the wp presentation with some new info
23:54:40 <rbm> oh, excellent
23:54:42 <gilbertw> the day in the life of the porter should have a little section on proc and proc_doc
23:55:08 <rbm> send mail to vinod about it
23:55:10 <gilbertw> it looks like the query extractor keys off of proc_doc or ad_proc
23:55:12 <gilbertw> ok
23:55:26 <gilbertw> now I gotta dig up his email :)